Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

[JonathanL]

Tell me then, is rape wrong in and of itself whether god exists or not, or is it only wrong because god exists?

You wouldn't even be here asking the question if God didn't exist.

[seer]

No, I did not. I said that “treating women like chattel” undermines today’s social values.”

No Tass, we were speaking of rape (human and animal) and I said:

Yes, but you are making a moral judgment about humans acting on these instincts. Why?

Then you said:

Morality is not just the purview of religion. Morality is the product of evolution, it lends itself to our survival as a species.

And that is just silly, primates survive just fine with forced sex, and cultures where women are treated like property (past and present) survive just fine. So your whole argument as to why treating women like chattel is immoral is bunk.

It has to do with the illegality of “state bans on same-sex marriage and on recognizing same-sex marriages duly performed in other jurisdictions are unconstitutional under the due process and equal protection clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution”. The intent of the Civil Rights Act is the same.

Tass, there is no "intent" to restrict discrimination based on sexual orientation or behavior Civil Rights Act, period. And you can not apply the equal protection clause to the Christian baker because that clause only applies to what the government can or can not do - not what a private business can or can not do. Your argument is foolish and ignorant.

You could NOT legally turn anyone away on the basis of discrimination against their religion (e.g. Jewish or Muslim) or the color of their skin (e.g. black or brown) or because you disapproved of their marital status (e.g. interracial or homosexual). Does your deity really approve of such small-minded bigotry being labeled as “free exercise of religion”?

Tass you don't understand the Civil Rights Act. This part of the act only applies to those who are involved with interstate commerce. If I wasn't involved with interstate commerce (fruit stand) the law would not apply therefore I could turn away whom I chose. And I did not say who I would or wouldn't turn away - so why are bringing it up?

[JimL]

Nope, not in a godless universe where moral relativism is the case.

So, what is it that makes rape or murder wrong? Is it wrong simply because god arbitrarily deems it to be wrong, or is there reason behind gods moral law?

[JimL]

You wouldn't even be here asking the question if God didn't exist.

I understand that's your belief, but that doesn't answer my question, Chrawnus.

[seer]

So, what is it that makes rape or murder wrong? Is it wrong simply because god arbitrarily deems it to be wrong, or is there reason behind gods moral law?

Jim, God's moral laws are not arbitrary, they are based on His immutable moral character (we have been through this before). Where man's laws are arbitrary since his nature is morally fickle as are his moral goals and reasons.

[JimL]

Jim, God's moral laws are not arbitrary, they are based on His immutable moral character (we have been through this before). Where man's laws are arbitrary since his nature is morally fickle as are his moral goals and reasons.

So, is gods immutable moral charactor based on reason or is rape immoral simply because god himself is defined as having a moral nature? In other words is that which is good only good because it eminates from god?

[seer]

In other words is that which is good only good because it eminates from god?

Yes... Do you have something better?

[JimL]

Yes... Do you have something better?

And being that god is good, and that the good eminates from god as law, is god bound by the same moral laws?

[seer]

And being that god is good, and that the good eminates from god as law, is god bound by the same moral laws?

Not necessarily, for instance God could never steal or be guilty of stealing because everything belongs to Him. But we could be guilty of theft.

[JimL]

Not necessarily, for instance God could never steal or be guilty of stealing because everything belongs to Him. But we could be guilty of theft.

But you claimed morality is the inherent nature of gods immutable charactor, but now you're saying that morality doesn't apply to god. Besides, by that logic, nothing at all belongs to any one of us, so nothing can be said to be stolen from us.

[seer]

But you claimed morality is the inherent nature of gods immutable charactor, but now you're saying that morality doesn't apply to god.

Jim, I just gave one example - what do you take exception to? If God owns everything how could He be accused of stealing?

[JimL]

Jim, I just gave one example - what do you take exception to? If God owns everything how could He be accused of stealing?

So, just so long as you own a human being, slashing them to death is good? Causing suffering is good? Sorry seer, but that kind of moral character has nothing to do with goodness. What you're talking about is obedience and power, not morality.

[Tassman]

No Tass, we were speaking of rape (human and animal)

And that is just silly, primates survive just fine with forced sex, and cultures where women are treated like property (past and present) survive just fine. So your whole argument as to why treating women like chattel is immoral is bunk.

The argument is that “treating women like chattel” undermines today’s social values.” This is in the context of morality varying from culture to culture over time, which is the argument.

Tass, there is no "intent" to restrict discrimination based on sexual orientation or behavior Civil Rights Act, period.

“The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is a landmark civil rights and labor law in the United States that outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. It prohibits unequal application of voter registration requirements, and racial segregation in schools, employment, and public accommodations”. Wiki. The intent is clear as was recognized in 2015 when the U.S. Supreme Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment requires all states to grant same-sex marriages and recognize same-sex marriages granted in other states. In short, same-sex marriage is recognized by the state and by implication by the population as well.

[Tassman]

Nope, not in a godless universe where moral relativism is the case.

“Moral relativism” is equally the case in a “godly” universe - morality has always varied over time in every culture. For example, owning slaves was assumed to be morally correct for centuries by Christian societies. It was even justified by scripture. It is no longer; today it is considered morally wrong.

[seer]

So, just so long as you own a human being, slashing them to death is good? Causing suffering is good? Sorry seer, but that kind of moral character has nothing to do with goodness. What you're talking about is obedience and power, not morality.

But of course we say God is Good, unchangeably so. I'm not sure what your point is. That God at times destroys sinners? Like we destroyed Germans and Japanese to save the world? Or ISIS to stop their rampage? How was that not good?