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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    If you are going to argue that Christians led the abolition movement then you must also argue that Christians led the slavery “movement” and maintained the Jim Crow laws well into the 20th century. Christianity has always reflected the social values of the day and these values evolve and vary to a degree from culture to culture over time.
    Christians did not lead the slavery movement, that was a long standing practice, and nearly universal. What Christians did do was lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America. And they were not reflecting the values of the day they were directly going against the values of the day. And Christianity has not always reflected the social values of the day, some Christians may, but my Church, for instance, doesn't.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      Christians did not lead the slavery movement, that was a long standing practice, and nearly universal.
      Slavery was a “long standing practice” fully tolerated by Christians for centuries because Christianity reflects the social values of the day. Many Christians justified it via biblical texts.

      What Christians did do was lead the abolition that ended slavery
      Many Christians did not. It took the Southern Baptist Convention until 1995 to adopt a resolution whereby it renounced its racist roots and apologized for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacy. It took until 1994 for the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa and South West Africa to abolish apartheid.

      And Christianity has not always reflected the social values of the day, some Christians may, but my Church, for instance, doesn't.
      Historically Christianity has reflected the social values of the day. Although, some Christians continue to reject equal ‘civil rights’ for all people.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        Slavery was a “long standing practice” fully tolerated by Christians for centuries because Christianity reflects the social values of the day. Many Christians justified it via biblical texts.
        You mean all Christians supported slavery for all those centuries?

        Many Christians did not. It took the Southern Baptist Convention until 1995 to adopt a resolution whereby it renounced its racist roots and apologized for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacy. It took until 1994 for the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa and South West Africa to abolish apartheid.
        So what, that doesn't change the fact that is was Christians who lead the anti slavery movement going against the values of the day.


        Historically Christianity has reflected the social values of the day. Although, some Christians continue to reject equal ‘civil rights’ for all people.

        Tass please, you know nothing of historical Christianity, but I'm glad you agree that we don't always follow the mores of the day.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Christians did not lead the slavery movement, that was a long standing practice, and nearly universal. What Christians did do was lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America. And they were not reflecting the values of the day they were directly going against the values of the day. And Christianity has not always reflected the social values of the day, some Christians may, but my Church, for instance, doesn't.
          A distinct minority of Christians opposed all forms of slavery in the USA. Also, rational humanists were at the forefront of opposing slavery in the 18th century.

          Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States



          During the Age of Enlightenment rationalist thinkers criticized slavery for violating people's natural rights. A member of the British Parliament, James Edward Oglethorpe, was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery. The founder of the Province of Georgia, Oglethorpe banned slavery on humanistic grounds. He argued against it in Parliament and eventually encouraged his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause. Soon after his death in 1785, Sharp and More joined with William Wilberforce and others in forming the Clapham Sect. Although anti-slavery sentiments were widespread by the late 18th century, many colonies, churches, and emerging nations (notably in the southern United States) continued to use and defend the traditions of slavery. The ban on slavery in Georgia was lifted in 1751.

          © Copyright Original Source



          There are no spiritual laws in the Tanakh, Torah, Bible nor the Quran that specifically oppose all forms of slavery.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-04-2020, 10:00 PM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            A distinct minority of Christians opposed all forms of slavery in the USA. Also, rational humanists were at the forefront of opposing slavery in the 18th century.

            Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States



            During the Age of Enlightenment rationalist thinkers criticized slavery for violating people's natural rights. A member of the British Parliament, James Edward Oglethorpe, was among the first to articulate the Enlightenment case against slavery. The founder of the Province of Georgia, Oglethorpe banned slavery on humanistic grounds. He argued against it in Parliament and eventually encouraged his friends Granville Sharp and Hannah More to vigorously pursue the cause. Soon after his death in 1785, Sharp and More joined with William Wilberforce and others in forming the Clapham Sect. Although anti-slavery sentiments were widespread by the late 18th century, many colonies, churches, and emerging nations (notably in the southern United States) continued to use and defend the traditions of slavery. The ban on slavery in Georgia was lifted in 1751.

            © Copyright Original Source



            There are no spiritual laws in the Tanakh, Torah, Bible nor the Quran that specifically oppose all forms of slavery.
            Shuny I'm pretty sure that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians. Especially More and Granville. And Slavery was nearly a universal institution, and allowed in Scripture. What wasn't allowed was man stealing or kidnapping - it was a death penalty offense. And that was what slavery was largely based on in the West. But none of this changes what I said - it was Christians who lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by seer View Post
              Shuny I'm pretty sure that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians. Especially More and Granville. And Slavery was nearly a universal institution, and allowed in Scripture. What wasn't allowed was man stealing or kidnapping - it was a death penalty offense. And that was what slavery was largely based on in the West. But none of this changes what I said - it was Christians who lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America.
              Your neglecting the fact that as a result of the Age of Enlightenment, these advocates against slavery did not so on Christian religious grounds, and they claimed to be 'rational humanists,' and on 'natural' grounds that it was against the laws of nature. I do not believe that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians were traditional Christians as you believe. There was a strong Deist influence here in their writings as cited.

              Yes slavery was nearly a universal institution, but not widely opposed by 'traditional Christians.' Most did not and slaves were widely held by Christians even in the North.
              Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-05-2020, 09:45 PM.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by seer View Post
                You mean all Christians supported slavery for all those centuries?
                Majority populations supported slavery in many areas - including areas wherein the vast majority of the population was Christian.

                So what, that doesn't change the fact that is was Christians who lead the anti slavery movement going against the values of the day.
                Rational Humanists led the the anti-slavery movement as Shuny has pointed out several times .

                Tass please, you know nothing of historical Christianity, but I'm glad you agree that we don't always follow the mores of the day.
                Indeed many Christians do not follow the mores of the day, this resulted in the Civil War and the Jim Crow laws and many other form of unacceptable discrimination.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  Your neglecting the fact that as a result of the Age of Enlightenment, these advocates against slavery did not so on Christian religious grounds, and they claimed to be 'rational humanists,' and on 'natural' grounds that it was against the laws of nature. I do not believe that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians were traditional Christians as you believe. There was a strong Deist influence here in their writings as cited.

                  Yes slavery was nearly a universal institution, but not widely opposed by 'traditional Christians.' Most did not and slaves were widely held by Christians even in the North.
                  Nonsense Shuny, abolitionists certainly did use a scripture, and More, Sharp and Oglethorpe certainly were not Deists.

                  Oglethorpe later asserted that he and his fellow trustees prohibited slavery because it was “against the Gospel, as well as the fundamental law of England.” ... After having the impassioned letter translated, he wrote Job's owner and promised to purchase the young man's freedom and pay for his passage to England.

                  https://www.savannahnow.com/article/...NION/302159906

                  https://books.google.com/books?id=HZ...0faith&f=false


                  More was the first woman involved in the organized abolitionist movement. She wrote pamphlets and poetry to advance the abolitionist movement. She helped sponsor the publication of Olaudah Equiano’s autobiography, the account of a former slave. She helped promote the boycott of slave-grown sugar. She believed strongly that God had created all people equally valuable.

                  Hannah More led an extraordinary life. She had tremendous influence on society and used it to make positive reforms. She was motivated and guided by her Christian convictions.

                  https://www.str.org/blog/hannah-more...s#.XjwLC2hKiM8

                  http://infed.org/mobi/hannah-more-su...nd-youth-work/


                  Daniel B. Wallace says about Sharp:

                  His strong belief in Christ’s deity led him to study the Scriptures in the original in order to defend more ably that precious truth ... As he studied the Scriptures in the original, he noticed a certain pattern, namely, when the construction article-noun-και-noun involved personal nouns which were singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that this rule applied in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ.”

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_Sharp
                  Last edited by seer; 02-06-2020, 07:17 AM.
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    Majority populations supported slavery in many areas - including areas wherein the vast majority of the population was Christian.
                    How do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?

                    Rational Humanists led the the anti-slavery movement as Shuny has pointed out several times .
                    That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.


                    Indeed many Christians do not follow the mores of the day, this resulted in the Civil War and the Jim Crow laws and many other form of unacceptable discrimination.
                    What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Majority populations supported slavery in many areas - including areas wherein the vast majority of the population was Christian.
                      AFAICT only those whose livelihoods depended on slavery and therefore needed to justify it were supportive of slavery. Even in the South small farmers, who greatly outnumbered plantation owners but had a fraction of their political clout, absolutely loathed it. It was regarded by most people as being at best a necessary evil.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        AFAICT only those whose livelihoods depended on slavery and therefore needed to justify it were supportive of slavery. Even in the South small farmers, who greatly outnumbered plantation owners but had a fraction of their political clout, absolutely loathed it. It was regarded by most people as being at best a necessary evil.
                        This is an assertion without documentation. Slavery was not wildly opposed in the South and slavery was common in the North. America's view toward slavery was more pragmatic, when needed, and the effort to separate slave states from non-slave stated reflect a view that many loathed it.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-06-2020, 10:21 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          How do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?
                          It was commonplace in majority Christian countries, as you’ve previously acknowledged, and supported by the laws of the day as enacted by Christians.

                          That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.
                          Slavery was prevalent in Christian countries for centuries before the abolitionist movement. What took them so long. The difference was the influence of enlightenment values. Enlightenment figures influenced ordinary people and legislative values all over the Western world.

                          What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...
                          Some Christians have resisted the overall values of the day including the rejection of civil rights legislation values. But they come around eventually (at least nominally) as is evident by the ultimate if reluctant rejection of slavery and the Jim Crow laws of the predominately Christian US southern states.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            This is an assertion without documentation. Slavery was not wildly opposed in the South and slavery was common in the North. America's view toward slavery was more pragmatic, when needed, and the effort to separate slave states from non-slave stated reflect a view that many loathed it.
                            The small farmers hated it for a variety of reasons. One of them was motivated by sheer self-interest, namely that they could not compete against slave labor.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              It was commonplace in majority Christian countries, as you’ve previously acknowledged, and supported by the laws of the day as enacted by Christians.
                              It was common place in most countries mostly among the wealthy. The common man, Christian or not, could not afford slaves. So you have no idea if the majority of Christians accepted it or not.


                              Slavery was prevalent in Christian countries for centuries before the abolitionist movement. What took them so long. The difference was the influence of enlightenment values. Enlightenment figures influenced ordinary people and legislative values all over the Western world.
                              That is just crap, the Abolitionists did not use enlightenment values, unless those values include God given rights and God created equality. But you did not answer:Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire.

                              Some Christians have resisted the overall values of the day including the rejection of civil rights legislation values. But they come around eventually (at least nominally) as is evident by the ultimate if reluctant rejection of slavery and the Jim Crow laws of the predominately Christian US southern states.
                              You are full of it Tass...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                It was common place in most countries mostly among the wealthy. The common man, Christian or not, could not afford slaves. So you have no idea if the majority of Christians accepted it or not.
                                And of course there hadn't been slavery in Europe itself (which would have counted as "majority Christian countries") for quite some time before the rise of the abolitionist movements seeking to ban it elsewhere.

                                And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that nearly everywhere slavery is still practiced Christianity is not the dominant religion.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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