Originally posted by Tassman
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Cogito ergo sum
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Morally Wrong Behavior vs. What the Civil Government Should Prohibit
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostChristians did not lead the slavery movement, that was a long standing practice, and nearly universal.
What Christians did do was lead the abolition that ended slavery
And Christianity has not always reflected the social values of the day, some Christians may, but my Church, for instance, doesn't.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostSlavery was a “long standing practice” fully tolerated by Christians for centuries because Christianity reflects the social values of the day. Many Christians justified it via biblical texts.
Many Christians did not. It took the Southern Baptist Convention until 1995 to adopt a resolution whereby it renounced its racist roots and apologized for its past defense of slavery, segregation, and white supremacy. It took until 1994 for the Dutch Reform Church in South Africa and South West Africa to abolish apartheid.
Historically Christianity has reflected the social values of the day. Although, some Christians continue to reject equal ‘civil rights’ for all people.
Tass please, you know nothing of historical Christianity, but I'm glad you agree that we don't always follow the mores of the day.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostChristians did not lead the slavery movement, that was a long standing practice, and nearly universal. What Christians did do was lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America. And they were not reflecting the values of the day they were directly going against the values of the day. And Christianity has not always reflected the social values of the day, some Christians may, but my Church, for instance, doesn't.
There are no spiritual laws in the Tanakh, Torah, Bible nor the Quran that specifically oppose all forms of slavery.Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-04-2020, 10:00 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostA distinct minority of Christians opposed all forms of slavery in the USA. Also, rational humanists were at the forefront of opposing slavery in the 18th century.
There are no spiritual laws in the Tanakh, Torah, Bible nor the Quran that specifically oppose all forms of slavery.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostShuny I'm pretty sure that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians. Especially More and Granville. And Slavery was nearly a universal institution, and allowed in Scripture. What wasn't allowed was man stealing or kidnapping - it was a death penalty offense. And that was what slavery was largely based on in the West. But none of this changes what I said - it was Christians who lead the abolition that ended slavery in the British empire and America.
Yes slavery was nearly a universal institution, but not widely opposed by 'traditional Christians.' Most did not and slaves were widely held by Christians even in the North.Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-05-2020, 09:45 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostYou mean all Christians supported slavery for all those centuries?
So what, that doesn't change the fact that is was Christians who lead the anti slavery movement going against the values of the day.
Tass please, you know nothing of historical Christianity, but I'm glad you agree that we don't always follow the mores of the day.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour neglecting the fact that as a result of the Age of Enlightenment, these advocates against slavery did not so on Christian religious grounds, and they claimed to be 'rational humanists,' and on 'natural' grounds that it was against the laws of nature. I do not believe that Oglethorpe, More and Granville were all Christians were traditional Christians as you believe. There was a strong Deist influence here in their writings as cited.
Yes slavery was nearly a universal institution, but not widely opposed by 'traditional Christians.' Most did not and slaves were widely held by Christians even in the North.
Oglethorpe later asserted that he and his fellow trustees prohibited slavery because it was “against the Gospel, as well as the fundamental law of England.” ... After having the impassioned letter translated, he wrote Job's owner and promised to purchase the young man's freedom and pay for his passage to England.
https://www.savannahnow.com/article/...NION/302159906
https://books.google.com/books?id=HZ...0faith&f=false
More was the first woman involved in the organized abolitionist movement. She wrote pamphlets and poetry to advance the abolitionist movement. She helped sponsor the publication of Olaudah Equiano’s autobiography, the account of a former slave. She helped promote the boycott of slave-grown sugar. She believed strongly that God had created all people equally valuable.
Hannah More led an extraordinary life. She had tremendous influence on society and used it to make positive reforms. She was motivated and guided by her Christian convictions.
https://www.str.org/blog/hannah-more...s#.XjwLC2hKiM8
http://infed.org/mobi/hannah-more-su...nd-youth-work/
Daniel B. Wallace says about Sharp:
“His strong belief in Christ’s deity led him to study the Scriptures in the original in order to defend more ably that precious truth ... As he studied the Scriptures in the original, he noticed a certain pattern, namely, when the construction article-noun-και-noun involved personal nouns which were singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that this rule applied in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granville_SharpLast edited by seer; 02-06-2020, 07:17 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostMajority populations supported slavery in many areas - including areas wherein the vast majority of the population was Christian.
Rational Humanists led the the anti-slavery movement as Shuny has pointed out several times .
Indeed many Christians do not follow the mores of the day, this resulted in the Civil War and the Jim Crow laws and many other form of unacceptable discrimination.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostMajority populations supported slavery in many areas - including areas wherein the vast majority of the population was Christian.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAFAICT only those whose livelihoods depended on slavery and therefore needed to justify it were supportive of slavery. Even in the South small farmers, who greatly outnumbered plantation owners but had a fraction of their political clout, absolutely loathed it. It was regarded by most people as being at best a necessary evil.Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-06-2020, 10:21 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostHow do you know what the majority supported three, four, five hundred years ago? You have polls?
That is a complete falsehood - the three specific people that Shuny mentioned were Christians. Please list the Rational Humanists that led the abolition movement in America and the British empire. I will be waiting.
What is it Tass? Either we follow the values of the day or we don't - make up your mind...“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis is an assertion without documentation. Slavery was not wildly opposed in the South and slavery was common in the North. America's view toward slavery was more pragmatic, when needed, and the effort to separate slave states from non-slave stated reflect a view that many loathed it.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt was commonplace in majority Christian countries, as you’ve previously acknowledged, and supported by the laws of the day as enacted by Christians.
Slavery was prevalent in Christian countries for centuries before the abolitionist movement. What took them so long. The difference was the influence of enlightenment values. Enlightenment figures influenced ordinary people and legislative values all over the Western world.
Some Christians have resisted the overall values of the day including the rejection of civil rights legislation values. But they come around eventually (at least nominally) as is evident by the ultimate if reluctant rejection of slavery and the Jim Crow laws of the predominately Christian US southern states.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt was common place in most countries mostly among the wealthy. The common man, Christian or not, could not afford slaves. So you have no idea if the majority of Christians accepted it or not.
And I'm sure it's just a coincidence that nearly everywhere slavery is still practiced Christianity is not the dominant religion.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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