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Impeachment: Republican Senators leaving Senate Chamber During Impeachment Trial

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You're suggesting that the president has the power to refuse a legal request from Congress, and there's nothing they can do about it, not even go to court. Is that really what you believe?
    No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot. Using executive privilege in order to cover up a crime is a crime in itself, it's illegal. But, if the president can, without claiming executive privilege, just refuse to turn over evidence, which is what this president is trying to get away with, then Congress would simply lose the power invested in them to impeach. Thus, the wannabe dictator, becomes a dictator.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
      Yes because no president, before Trump, ever stonewalled Congress!

      Executive privilege is just something that Trump fabricated out of thin air

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        This is mere conjecture on your part. The subpoenas were dropped because (as Trump presumably planned) they would not be ruled upon by the courts until well after the November elections when they would effectively be irrelevant.
        As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.

        And if worrying about delays are an issue then why are the Democrats insisting on the Senate issuing subpoenas? Wouldn't they face the same delays making them as you say "effectively ... irrelevant" as well? In fact it'll take longer because it'll be a couple months after the House would have issued them thanks in part to Pelosi squatting on them for a month.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot.
          That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.
            As Schiff said: "We're not going to delay our work." "That would merely allow these witnesses and the White House to succeed with their goal which is to delay, deny, obstruct." Why do they feel the need to obstruct Trump's alibis to the accusations of extortion? Presumably because Trump would not be exonerated by such witnesses - as increasingly seems to be the case. Bolton's manuscript being but the latest example.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.
              No other president has challenged house impeachment powers because it’s not a challenge they can win and the inevitable loss will weaken the power of future presidents. As it currently stands, the president is able to use the unchallenged status to negotiate more favourable terms with congress during impeachment.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                Jimmy, Nixon and Clinton had to be compelled by the courts in their impeachment hearings. Do you ever read history books Jimmy? Stonewalling Congress is a presidential tradition, but Democrats only care when it’s a Republican doing it. I can’t imagine why.
                I don’t think that’s accurate. The Supreme Court case in relation to Clinton’s impeachment was on whether a sitting president had immunity from civil lawsuits and Nixon was about priority of executive privilege over judicial needs. There’s was no challenge against impeachment hearings.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  As the judge in Kupperman's case made repeatedly clear he was planning on expediting the case so that it would take a couple of months at best.

                  And if worrying about delays are an issue then why are the Democrats insisting on the Senate issuing subpoenas? Wouldn't they face the same delays making them as you say "effectively ... irrelevant" as well? In fact it'll take longer because it'll be a couple months after the House would have issued them thanks in part to Pelosi squatting on them for a month.
                  Because it would most likely be ignored which would force the senate to accept article 2. That’s probably why they’re adamant on not issuing subpoenas at all. Why does the senate even have subpoena power if it’s not part of their job?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                    No, I didn't suggest that they couldn't go to court, I suggested that for Congress to have to fight every supoena in court would render their Constitutional requirement to hold a corrupt president to account moot. Using executive privilege in order to cover up a crime is a crime in itself, it's illegal. But, if the president can, without claiming executive privilege, just refuse to turn over evidence, which is what this president is trying to get away with, then Congress would simply lose the power invested in them to impeach. Thus, the wannabe dictator, becomes a dictator.
                    Okay... so why didn't the House fight it in court? Because at this point, without a judicial ruling, there's nothing that says the President actually did anything wrong in this respect.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      That is pretty much what every Congress has faced when all the other president's claimed executive privilege.
                      This president didn't claim executive privilege! And there is a nefarious reason for his not doing so. Discovery! He would then have to give reason for the claim. So he didn't claim executive privilege, he just refused to allow any testimony or turn over any subpoenaed documents, you know, like a dictator would do.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Okay... so why didn't the House fight it in court? Because at this point, without a judicial ruling, there's nothing that says the President actually did anything wrong in this respect.
                        Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over and because they got enough patriotic Americans to defy the Presidents orders and testify, as well as enough documentary evidence to indict and that is all that is required for the House to impeach, to bring the case to trial. That puts the onus on the Senate to put on a fair trial, to demand relevant witnesses and other evidence previously blocked.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                          I don’t think that’s accurate. The Supreme Court case in relation to Clinton’s impeachment was on whether a sitting president had immunity from civil lawsuits and Nixon was about priority of executive privilege over judicial needs. There’s was no challenge against impeachment hearings.
                          Humm, I thought that Clinton told his people not to testify and Nixon fought to not release his tapes. Is that not true?
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over and because they got enough patriotic Americans to defy the Presidents orders and testify, as well as enough documentary evidence to indict and that is all that is required for the House to impeach, to bring the case to trial. That puts the onus on the Senate to put on a fair trial, to demand relevant witnesses and other evidence previously blocked.
                            “You don’t have time to think about it, just act now!”

                            The tactics of a pushy used car salesmen who is trying to sell you his lemon. I’ll pass.
                            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by JimLamebrain View Post
                              Because they didn't fall for the presidents trap to delay, delay, delay, until the election was over...
                              So instead they voted to impeach and then "delayed, delayed, delayed" sending it to the Senate until the Senate threatened to dismiss the charges if the articles weren't delivered in a timely manner.

                              But you missed the biggest point here: without a judicial ruling in the House's favor, there is nothing to say that what the President did is actually wrong.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                Humm, I thought that Clinton told his people not to testify and Nixon fought to not release his tapes. Is that not true?
                                They did do that but there was no impeachment challenge taken to court. I believe Clinton tried to influence witness testimony by asking them to lie for him. Nixon claimed executive privilege of the tapes in a criminal proceeding not an impeachment proceeding. Nixon argued that executive privilege is superior to everything except impeachment proceedings.

                                Comment

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