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. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Merely citing this reference begs the question as to how you derive "the Real Presence in the Eucharist" from it. From my point of view it teaches no such thing. But does in my view teach the Real Presence in the Body of Christ being made up of believers. "Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." - "For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." - οτι εις αρτος εν σωμα οι πολλοι εσμεν οι γαρ παντες εκ του ενος αρτου μετεχομεν
    Personally, I find St Paul's words more than sufficient to express my belief. St Paul does not say that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ. I think he means the real blood and the real body, and I see no reason whatsoever to create an artificial dichotomy between our sharing in the body of Christ and all believers being the body of Christ on earth. We are all being conformed to Christ crucified and will share in his resurrection.

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Christ's intent was to institute a remembrance (Luke 22:19).
    ". . . the above words speak of participation in the body and blood of Christ's sacrifice, the latter element perhaps only hinted at here, . . ." Either it is participation with Christ's sacrifice or it is not. It was not and is not since it is a remembrance of it. The sacrifice was completed on the cross once and for all. And the remembrance was instituted before the sacrifice it was to commemorate.
    ". . . should be a source of communion among all of us, as members of the body of Christ." Members of the body are in communion [fellowship] being members of the body. Believers are in the body of Christ through faith (1 John 5:1, 4, 5, 12, 13). So the claim that "The Real Presence in the Eucharist" is an unnecessary claim, besides being a false claim.

    Why do you think it necessary? Where does the Holy Scripture teach it?
    Do you think that we cannot be truly and really present to God, to Christ crucified and risen through a communal remembrance of his sacrifice, through a remembrance and re-enactment of his last meal with his disciples in which he told them (and now us) of the meaning of his sacrifice? Like the people of Israel, who are partners in the altar, we too must take up our cross and offer up ourselves to God in imitation of Christ's sacrifice. Wherever two or more are gathered in his name, Christ is also present. No less so in the celebration of the Eucharist. Christ is present to us in the celebration of the Eucharist. It is a participation in body of Christ, in the blood of Christ, as real as anything I have ever experienced.
    Last edited by robrecht; 05-26-2014, 07:55 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Personally, I find St Paul's words more than sufficient to express my belief. St Paul does not say that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ. I think he means the real blood and the real body, and I see no reason whatsoever to create an artificial dichotomy between our sharing in the body of Christ and all believers being the body of Christ on earth. We are all being conformed to Christ crucified and will share in his resurrection.
      The false dichotomy is created by presuming a "Real Presence in the Eucharist." Where Christ Himself bodily is in the presence of God and by way of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, is in the church being the body of Christ (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:9) in the members in particular. And the blood was payment finished on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10).

      Do you think that we cannot be truly and really present to God, to Christ crucified and risen through a communal remembrance of his sacrifice, through a remembrance and re-enactment of his last meal with his disciples in which he told them (and now us) of the meaning of his sacrifice?
      Not in the sense of the Real Presence being in the elements. As I explained above.


      . . . Like the people of Israel, who are partners in the altar, we too must take up our cross and offer up ourselves to God in imitation of Christ's sacrifice. Wherever two or more are gathered in his name, Christ is also present. No less so in the celebration of the Eucharist. Christ is present to us in the celebration of the Eucharist. It is a participation in body of Christ, in the blood of Christ, as real as anything I have ever experienced.
      Then it is a false experience. I would not trust it. I rather trust God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2; 1 John 5:13).
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The false dichotomy is created by presuming a "Real Presence in the Eucharist." Where Christ Himself bodily is in the presence of God and by way of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, is in the church being the body of Christ (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:9) in the members in particular. And the blood was payment finished on the cross (John 19:28; Hebrews 10:10).

        Not in the sense of the Real Presence being in the elements. As I explained above.

        Then it is a false experience. I would not trust it. I rather trust God who cannot lie (Titus 1:2; 1 John 5:13).
        Do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ? Or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ?
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          The false dichotomy is created by presuming a "Real Presence in the Eucharist." ...
          You do know what a false dichotomy is, right? For example, if I said x annd y cannot both be true, and since x is true, therefore y cannot be true. But if x and y can indeed both be true, then I would have created a false dichotomy. What is the false dichotomy that you think I have created?
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            Do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ? Or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ?
            I'm not understanding this .... if by using grape juice (or wine) to simulate the REAL blood of Christ.... I'm not getting what you're saying.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              I'm not understanding this .... if by using grape juice (or wine) to simulate the REAL blood of Christ.... I'm not getting what you're saying.
              Simply what St Paul is saying, ie, that the cup of blessing that we bless is a participation in the blood of Christ and the bread that we share is a participation in the body of Christ. I would rather use the term symbol rather than simulation, but I would never say 'just a symbol', because symbols are very real and deserving of respect, especially in the ancient world. When Jesus gave us a symbol for his death, he gave us a solemn way to participate in his own acceptance of his death. We offer ourselves in faith and thanksgiving every time we celebrate the Eucharist, and every time we reverence this sacrament as a unique opportunity given to us by Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Simply what St Paul is saying, ie, that the cup of blessing that we bless is a participation in the blood of Christ and bread that we share is a participation in the body of Christ. I would rather use the term symbol rather than simulation, but I would never say 'just a symbol', because symbols are very real and deserving of respect, especially in the ancient world. When Jesus gave us a symbol for his death, he gave us a solemn way to participate in his own acceptance of his death. We offer ourselves in faith and thanksgiving every time we celebrate the Eucharist, and every time we reverence this sacrament as a unique opportunity given to us by Jesus, our Lord and Savior.
                OK, nothing there with which I disagree, including the "simulate" comment. Still not sure I understand the part about the fake blood, but... no prob.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  OK, nothing there with which I disagree, including the "simulate" comment. Still not sure I understand the part about the fake blood, but... no prob.
                  That part cannot be understood because it is a reductio ad absurdum. Paul cannot have meant a fake participation in fake blood, but must have intended real participation in the sacrifice of Christ.
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    That part cannot be understood because it is a reductio ad absurdum. Paul cannot have meant a fake participation in fake blood, but must have intended real participation in the sacrifice of Christ.
                    OK, got it!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                      Do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ? Or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ?
                      The fake blood and fake body is in the claim of the Real Presence being in the elements of the Eucharist. The fellowship is real for the believers being the one bread and one body and so partaking in that one bread in the remembrance (1 Corinthians 10:17).
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        You do know what a false dichotomy is, right? For example, if I said x annd y cannot both be true, and since x is true, therefore y cannot be true. But if x and y can indeed both be true, then I would have created a false dichotomy. What is the false dichotomy that you think I have created?
                        A dichotomy is - a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

                        We are arguing whether the Real Presences is in the Eucharist or not. That point of disagreement establishes the dichotomy. Whether we agree that the believes being the body of Christ constitute a Real Presence or not. As to possible combinations of possible beliefs on this matter there are more than two.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          A dichotomy is - a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

                          We are arguing whether the Real Presences is in the Eucharist or not. That point of disagreement establishes the dichotomy. Whether we agree that the believes being the body of Christ constitute a Real Presence or not. As to possible combinations of possible beliefs on this matter there are more than two.
                          So you do or you do not believe that I have created a false dichotomy??? That was my question to you.

                          What do you mean by "the believes"? 'The believers' perhaps?

                          In addition, I'm not sure you are really arguing with me or with some idea in your mind about what you imagine I believe. I do not recall ever saying that the Real Presences (plural) is (or are) in the Eucharst. I do believe that Christ is truly and really present when we celebrate the Eucharist, using the bread and wine as symbols, as Jesus himself did and commanded us to do. I do not believe that a chemical analysis of the consecrated bread and wine would be any different before or after consecration, but I also do not think it would be proper to perform a chemical analysis on consecrated bread and wine. I believe symbols are real, but I do not believe sacraments are magic of some kind.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                            So you do or you do not believe that I have created a false dichotomy??? That was my question to you.

                            What do you mean by "the believes"? 'The believers' perhaps?

                            In addition, I'm not sure you are really arguing with me or with some idea in your mind about what you imagine I believe. I do not recall ever saying that the Real Presences (plural) is (or are) in the Eucharst. I do believe that Christ is truly and really present when we celebrate the Eucharist, using the bread and wine as symbols, as Jesus himself did and commanded us to do. I do not believe that a chemical analysis of the consecrated bread and wine would be any different before or after consecration, but I also do not think it would be proper to perform a chemical analysis on consecrated bread and wine. I believe symbols are real, but I do not believe sacraments are magic of some kind.
                            I agree with all of this, but those who do not would probably take issue with your use of "magic" as opposed to "mystical".
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              The fake blood and fake body is in the claim of the Real Presence being in the elements of the Eucharist. The fellowship is real for the believers being the one bread and one body and so partaking in that one bread in the remembrance (1 Corinthians 10:17).
                              This doesn't seem like an answer to the question I asked you. If I may, let me remind you of the question: do you think St Paul said that the cup of blessing that we bless is a sharing in the fake blood of Christ? Or that the bread that we break is a sharing in the fake body of Christ? Is St Paul speaking of a real sharing or a fake sharing?
                              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I agree with all of this, but those who do not would probably take issue with your use of "magic" as opposed to "mystical".
                                I try not to underestimate the ability of others to disagree with me but I am continually surprised! I do believe that the celebration of Eucharist is (or at least can be) a mystical union with Christ and with all believers. Is that what you believe others believe that I do not not? Or something else?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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