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Bolten says trump wanted the aid frozen until he had answers to inquires sought

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    For one thing, if you are going to open an investigation, you don't make a public announcement to that effect on CNN,
    The phone call happened in June, and the whistleblower hullabaloo started months later. Between those times I don't recall any announcement. And if there was, you can thank the whistleblower for making the whole thing public.

    and for another thing you don't leave that task up to a foreign government to do,
    Burisma is based in Ukraine. The US could have investigated but it would have needed Ukraine cooperation.

    you don't demand foreign governments to investigate American citizens. So your arguments sound like partisan incredulity to me!
    If the alleged crime happened in their country, why not?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Ya know, maybe if the prosecutor had gotten to investigate Burisma we would have found out!
      So you admit that you've made a factual assertion that does not have any basis in known fact.

      You have a suspicion that you acknowledge is unfounded. Is that a legal predicate for an investigation?

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
        The phone call happened in June, and the whistleblower hullabaloo started months later. Between those times I don't recall any announcement. And if there was, you can thank the whistleblower for making the whole thing public.



        Burisma is based in Ukraine. The US could have investigated but it would have needed Ukraine cooperation.



        If the alleged crime happened in their country, why not?
        The phone call was July 25. The whistleblower complaint, which included but was not limited to the phone call, was made in late August.

        Hunter Biden is a US citizen, as is Joe Biden. Trump was not asking for an investigation into Burisma qua Burisma but of the Bidens. If, in the course of that investigation, DOJ needed Ukrainian assistance, the USA has a MLAT with Ukraine for exactly that purpose.

        There is no "alleged crime". If there were one, it would involve Biden using the power of his office for a corrupt purpose, meaning that the crime would happen in USA, not Ukraine.

        --Sam
        "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam View Post
          So you admit that you've made a factual assertion that does not have any basis in known fact.

          You have a suspicion that you acknowledge is unfounded. Is that a legal predicate for an investigation?

          --Sam
          It was good enough for the Democrats to investigate Trump. Why isn't it good enough for Trump to investigate Biden?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            It was good enough for the Democrats to investigate Trump. Why isn't it good enough for Trump to investigate Biden?
            Also false. But par for your course.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Big time personal gain. Heck, UKraine never even announced the investigation and look how much mileage he's getting out of it in terms of casting aspersion's on Biden.
              Ukraine prosecutors were asking for an investigation of Hunter Biden/Burisma before Joe Biden announced his candidacy. Trump was late to the game. And I don't see any of this helping Trump anyway. It might help Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders to some minor degree, but not Trump.

              The issue here is that The investigations are all tied to elements that only have value as they relate to Trump's future campaign. Remember, All Trump wanted was the announcement.
              According to who?

              In the grand scheme of things, what exactly does an announcement of an investigation into an unknown to the public oil company do to curb corruption or the perception of corruption in Ukraine?
              False premise.

              Nothing. But what does it do in terms casting shade on a well known potential candidate whose son happened to serve on the board of the relatively unknown oil company? A lot!
              Can you link to this "Trump announcement" on CNN?

              Even without the announcement from Ukraine, look how much mileage he's getting out if it politically! You've got people asking for Biden's testimony in Trump's impeachment trial! It casts a pale over his chief rival - Biden.

              Likewise the server deal. What does it do to help expose or curb corruption in Ukraine. Nothing, BUT - in terms of accusations Russia is helping Trump win elections, there you go - very helpful. He gets to turn it around and pretend it wasn't Russian help, and it wasn't Trump that was being helped. very helpful politically in the US.
              This Russia stuff has been debunked a million times over. What do you think Mueller presented after two years of partisan hyping?

              This had nothing to do with curbing corruption in Ukraine (which has been clearly testified to as well). This had to do with getting Ukraine to do things Donald Trump and decided would help reduce the threat of the Democrats and Biden in 2020.
              I never said it had anything to do with curbing corruption in Ukraine. I couldn't care less about them and their corruption. What I care about is past-and-present elected officials in this country peddling influence.

              That would be because or the filters you are 'listening' through.

              And you are just proving my case.
              The filters are with the Legacy Media.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                Also false. But par for your course.

                --Sam
                “I’m smarter, more moral, and more perfect than you!”



                Yet Sam wonders why he gets these back handed comments while doing them himself.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                  Ukraine prosecutors were asking for an investigation of Hunter Biden/Burisma before Joe Biden announced his candidacy. Trump was late to the game. And I don't see any of this helping Trump anyway. It might help Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders to some minor degree, but not Trump.
                  Trump would have been negligent in his duties if he hadn't asked about it considering the anti-corruption treaty we have with Ukraine (I'm sure that would have been enough to get the Dems to impeach him ). And IIRC, the last we had heard from Biden before the call was that he wasn't running.

                  Finally, if it is unethical to use the government to investigate an opponent during an election, just what does the left think happened to Trump in 2016?

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    The phone call was July 25. The whistleblower complaint, which included but was not limited to the phone call, was made in late August.
                    I stand corrected on the timeline. I would still like a link to this alleged CNN announcement by Trump, and if it came before or after the cat was already out of the bag.

                    Hunter Biden is a US citizen, as is Joe Biden. Trump was not asking for an investigation into Burisma qua Burisma but of the Bidens. If, in the course of that investigation, DOJ needed Ukrainian assistance, the USA has a MLAT with Ukraine for exactly that purpose.

                    There is no "alleged crime". If there were one, it would involve Biden using the power of his office for a corrupt purpose, meaning that the crime would happen in USA, not Ukraine.
                    IMO, Joe Biden should have stepped away from Ukraine when his son was hired. There was a potential conflict of interest - especially since there was no plausible reason for Burisma to hire Hunter for such a extravagant amount of money. That's probably all there is to it. But an investigation would prove that out.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                      This Russia stuff has been debunked a million times over. What do you think Mueller presented after two years of partisan hyping?
                      That:

                      1) His investigation did not address "collusion" but only coordination between the official Trump campaign and Russian intelligence services regarding the social media disinformation campaign and DNC/DSCC email hack.

                      2) That his investigation was routinely impeded by Trump officials and advisors, rising to the level of likely obstruction of justice on numerous occassions.

                      3) That Trump's unofficial advisors Manafort and Stone worked with different Russian cut-outs to provide important information about the election (Manafort) or coordinated the release of hacked emails (Stone) -- something that Doug Collins once argued on the House floor would fit the definition of "collusion".

                      4) That Stone was in communication with Trump regarding this coordination and almost certainly received direction from Trump while coordinating it.

                      Hardly a debunking, really.

                      --Sam
                      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                        That:

                        1) His investigation did not address "collusion" but only coordination between the official Trump campaign and Russian intelligence services regarding the social media disinformation campaign and DNC/DSCC email hack.

                        2) That his investigation was routinely impeded by Trump officials and advisors, rising to the level of likely obstruction of justice on numerous occassions.

                        3) That Trump's unofficial advisors Manafort and Stone worked with different Russian cut-outs to provide important information about the election (Manafort) or coordinated the release of hacked emails (Stone) -- something that Doug Collins once argued on the House floor would fit the definition of "collusion".

                        4) That Stone was in communication with Trump regarding this coordination and almost certainly received direction from Trump while coordinating it.

                        Hardly a debunking, really.

                        --Sam
                        The more you grasp at straws concerning the collusion delusion the less possible it is to take anything else you say seriously.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          I stand corrected on the timeline. I would still like a link to this alleged CNN announcement by Trump, and if it came before or after the cat was already out of the bag.



                          IMO, Joe Biden should have stepped away from Ukraine when his son was hired. There was a potential conflict of interest - especially since there was no plausible reason for Burisma to hire Hunter for such a extravagant amount of money. That's probably all there is to it. But an investigation would prove that out.
                          I apologize but I'm not following what CNN announcement you're referring to. There was a planned announcement of the investigations on CNN by Zelensky scheduled for September but that was cancelled after the whistleblower complaint was made public.

                          I'm not at all sure what the feasibility of a VP "stepping away" from Ukraine would be over a perceived conflict of interest. The level of support needing to be shown meant that you had to be dealing with the VP or POTUS and, while an argument can be made, I don't think it was logistically or practically feasible to offload Biden's Ukraine portfolio onto Obama. But that's why laws prohibiting these nepotistic conflicts is appropriate and needed.

                          If there's a valid predicate for the FBI to conduct an investigation, it should. Lacking that predicate, it should not. We're really all the way back to Hoover-era investigations if all you need is a suspicion without substance.

                          --Sam
                          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            The more you grasp at straws concerning the collusion delusion the less possible it is to take anything else you say seriously.
                            All of those facts are taken either right out of the Mueller Report or from the convictions of Manafort and Stone so I'm not sure you want to be pointing that Serious Stick at anyone with this claim, man.

                            --Sam
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              So you admit that you've made a factual assertion that does not have any basis in known fact.

                              You have a suspicion that you acknowledge is unfounded. Is that a legal predicate for an investigation?

                              --Sam
                              Seems to be enough to investigate and impeach Trump.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                                Also false. But par for your course.

                                --Sam
                                Hey, baby, I shoot below par on my course, and I'll give you a handicap just so you can keep up.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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