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Bolten says trump wanted the aid frozen until he had answers to inquires sought

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Biden extorted Ukraine to fire the prosecutor. Admitted it on video. How is that not the same thing as they are accusing Trump of?

    The only difference is that the dems are excusing Biden and claiming it wasn't for personal reasons. So apparently extorting a foreign country is not wrong in and of itself. It only depends on the motive. correct?
    The difference has been pointed out time and time again. Biden was acting on stated national and global policy. Trump is acting is his own self interests and against national security interests.

    Can you please articulate why you would think these are in any way equivalent?
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      The difference has been pointed out time and time again. Biden was acting on stated national and global policy. Trump is acting is his own self interests and against national security interests.

      Can you please articulate why you would think these are in any way equivalent?
      Those mind reading pills you have, are great. Can I have some?
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        The difference has been pointed out time and time again. Biden was acting on stated national and global policy. Trump is acting is his own self interests and against national security interests.

        Can you please articulate why you would think these are in any way equivalent?
        So I ask again: Why did that become national policy, and why did it only become national policy after Hunter and his cronies begged the Obama administration to get Shokin off their back?
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Seems to be enough to investigate and impeach Trump.
          Again, false.

          The 2016 FBI investigation involving Trump was properly predicated, according to the DOJ IG report.

          The SCO investigation of Trump was properly established by Trump's chosen DAG, with clear predicate in the termination of James Comey and Trump's public statements linking that termination with obstruction of the FBI investigation.

          The impeachment inquiry against Trump began with the unlawful withholding of a ICIG whistleblower report to HPSCI, which practiced legitimate congressional oversight.

          None were predicated on vague suspicions and you dishonor yourself by equivocating falsely.

          --Sam
          "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            The difference has been pointed out time and time again. Biden was acting on stated national and global policy. Trump is acting is his own self interests and against national security interests.

            Can you please articulate why you would think these are in any way equivalent?
            So again the only difference is in the motive? If Trump didn't do it for personal reasons then it would be perfectly kosher, correct?

            The act itself is not illegal is what I am trying to get you to admit.

            And they haven't proved the motive. They CLAIM it, but haven't proved it.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So again the only difference is in the motive? If Trump didn't do it for personal reasons then it would be perfectly kosher, correct?

              The act itself is not illegal is what I am trying to get you to admit.

              And they haven't proved the motive. They CLAIM it, but haven't proved it.
              As I pointed out a while back that personal and national interests aren't necessarily in conflict. Often they are in harmony.

              The obvious example would be a president signing something into law, not because it was a benefit to the country, but because he knew it would be a big boost to his chances for re-election.

              These are what are typically called win-win situations.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko
                And I would think that keeping a crooked former VP from becoming President would also be in the country's interest. If he is innocent, then it just makes Trump look foolish. If not, then Trump saved the country from a potential crooked President Biden.

                No way to know for sure without the investigation.
                The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate this (or is what matters).


                I believe that's what then Speaker of the House Tom Foley said about the thoroughly discredited rumor that George H.W. Bush (Bush the elder) secretly flew to Paris to make a deal with the Iranians to keep our embassy hostages captive until after the election so as to make it Carter was weak and that they were afraid of Reagan. And he made it more than clear it didn't matter whether or not there was evidence one way or another.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The seriousness of the charge mandates that we investigate this (or is what matters).


                  I believe that's what then Speaker of the House Tom Foley said about the thoroughly discredited rumor that George H.W. Bush (Bush the elder) secretly flew to Paris to make a deal with the Iranians to keep our embassy hostages captive until after the election so as to make it Carter was weak and that they were afraid of Reagan. And he made it more than clear it didn't matter whether or not there was evidence one way or another.
                  An interesting analogy.

                  But if there must be an investigation into this, why not numerous investigation into Trump's dealings with Russia and other foreign governments, where the evidence of contact and conflict is much more apparent? Why aren't y'all calling into blanket investigations of Trump RE: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the like?

                  And why wouldn't those investigations be done by domestic agencies and committees? Why farm it out to a foreign country, through the "irregular channel"?

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    An interesting analogy.

                    But if there must be an investigation into this, why not numerous investigation into Trump's dealings with Russia and other foreign governments, where the evidence of contact and conflict is much more apparent? Why aren't y'all calling into blanket investigations of Trump RE: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and the like?

                    And why wouldn't those investigations be done by domestic agencies and committees? Why farm it out to a foreign country, through the "irregular channel"?

                    --Sam
                    Dang. I was sure I didn't need the sarcasm tags. I know I didn't go overboard in making it obvious but still I thought it was pretty durn blatant.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      I apologize but I'm not following what CNN announcement you're referring to.
                      That was the other poster bringing that up. Sorry.

                      There was a planned announcement of the investigations on CNN by Zelensky scheduled for September but that was cancelled after the whistleblower complaint was made public.
                      Planned by Zelensky? OK.

                      I'm not at all sure what the feasibility of a VP "stepping away" from Ukraine would be over a perceived conflict of interest.
                      Joe Biden says he was Obama's "point man" in Kyiv. At the same time, his son is hired by a Kyiv gas company for $50,000 per month - in spite of his complete lack of experience in the energy business. Obviously Burisma thought it would get some favorable outcome from this. I'm certain Hunter wasn't providing $50,000-per-month legal advice. Perhaps he contributed to the board meetings "Uh, the best coke is from Colombia, man."

                      The level of support needing to be shown meant that you had to be dealing with the VP or POTUS and, while an argument can be made, I don't think it was logistically or practically feasible to offload Biden's Ukraine portfolio onto Obama.
                      John Kerry had practically pitched a tent in Kyiv as well. He could have been point man - especially since his stepson, Chris Heinz, immediately disassociated himself with Hunter and notified the State Department of his disassociation. Obviously he knew there was something wrong.

                      But that's why laws prohibiting these nepotistic conflicts is appropriate and needed.

                      If there's a valid predicate for the FBI to conduct an investigation, it should. Lacking that predicate, it should not. We're really all the way back to Hoover-era investigations if all you need is a suspicion without substance.
                      There was smoke. Where there is smoke there is often fire. An investigation would have sought that fire - not condemned anyone.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                        There was smoke. Where there is smoke there is often fire. An investigation would have sought that fire - not condemned anyone.
                        You know, I could care less if Biden is investigated if there is a reason to.

                        But how can you possibly continue to support Trump in this impeachment if you believe what is bolded above?
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          You know, I could care less if Biden is investigated if there is a reason to.

                          But how can you possibly continue to support Trump in this impeachment if you believe what is bolded above?
                          Trump already had a two-year investigation by Robert Mueller. I suppose he could be perpetually investigated just because he looks like he's guilty of something to Democrats.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            That:

                            1) His investigation did not address "collusion" but only coordination between the official Trump campaign and Russian intelligence services regarding the social media disinformation campaign and DNC/DSCC email hack.
                            What are you suggesting? That Mueller didn't investigate a more serious "collusion" (your quote, not mine) but just sniffed around the edges of coordination?

                            2) That his investigation was routinely impeded by Trump officials and advisors, rising to the level of likely obstruction of justice on numerous occassions.
                            "likely obstruction" isn't a crime. It is also subjective.

                            3) That Trump's unofficial advisors Manafort and Stone worked with different Russian cut-outs to provide important information about the election (Manafort) or coordinated the release of hacked emails (Stone) -- something that Doug Collins once argued on the House floor would fit the definition of "collusion".
                            No, what fits the definition of "collusion" is the Steele dossier; foreign source and full of fabrications.

                            4) That Stone was in communication with Trump regarding this coordination and almost certainly received direction from Trump while coordinating it.
                            "Almost certainly". We have "likely" and "almost" and the opinion of Doug Collins to launch a prosecution here?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              Trump already had a two-year investigation by Robert Mueller. I suppose he could be perpetually investigated just because he looks like he's guilty of something to Democrats.
                              That is not an answer to the question. Trump has done enough criminal, stupid and dumb things the warrant investigating him for the next 6 years if he doesn't do anything else criminal, dumb, or stupid.

                              I a person is being investigated because they deserve to be investigated, why in the world would that be an excuse to believe their lies?
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                                What are you suggesting? That Mueller didn't investigate a more serious "collusion" (your quote, not mine) but just sniffed around the edges of coordination?



                                "likely obstruction" isn't a crime. It is also subjective.



                                No, what fits the definition of "collusion" is the Steele dossier; foreign source and full of fabrications.



                                "Almost certainly". We have "likely" and "almost" and the opinion of Doug Collins to launch a prosecution here?
                                You have a DOJ and a GOP that will not move or act on what Trump has done. That does not make him innocent by any stretch.

                                It does make the DOJ and GOP, however, complicit in Trump's crimes.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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