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Bolten says trump wanted the aid frozen until he had answers to inquires sought

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  • #16
    Something about this story doesn't smell right...

    Chuck Cooper, an attorney for former National Security Adviser John Bolton, said that Bolton’s book manuscript was submitted to the National Security Council for a standard review for classified information, but its contents appear to have been leaked to the New York Times.

    ...

    The statement came after the Times report alleged — according to “multiple people” — that Trump told Bolton in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until they helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens.

    The Times story also alleged that Bolton had circulated the draft manuscript to “close associates,” but a spokesperson for Bolton told the outlet, “The ambassador has not passed the draft manuscript to anyone else. Period.”

    The leak of Bolton’s manuscript — while not known if accurately depicted — has fueled Democrats’ calls for Bolton to testify during the Senate impeachment trial against Trump.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...ew-york-times/

    The "according to 'multiple people'" caught my eye. Is this another New York Times "sources say" classic?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Article is paywalled, so it's hard to know what to make of this. The portion you cited contains no direct quotes and no context. Was Bolton describing an actual offer to the Ukrainian government, or an internal discussion? Because Trump's phonecall made no reference to linking aid to the investigations, the Ukrainian government was not aware that aid had been suspended until many weeks after the fact when it was reported by, I think, Politico, and Zelensky and his advisers have repeatedly said they never felt any pressure, and they were never under the impression that release of the aid was linked to their willingness to undertake investigations.

      So even if Bolton is telling the truth, it would appear somebody forgot to tell Ukraine.
      Why it would have been useful to actually pay attention to the House managers' presentation.

      Bolton's book reportedly says that Trump told him (Bolton) in August that he didn't want to release the $391 million in aid to Ukraine until he got material from the Biden and DNC server investigations. In other words, until he got his end of the quid pro quo, by that time tied up in both the arrangement over a WH meeting and security aid.

      Trump's phone call includes "a favor, though" for the WH meeting. We have heard testimony that Sondland understood over time that Trump was including the security aid in that quid quo pro. We heard testimony that Ukrainian officials knew in July that the aid was being withheld for some reason and that they became more desperate through August to end the "logjam". They understood exactly, according to testimony, that without those investigations, there would be no aid or Oval Office meeting.

      All extensively demonstrated over three days by the House managers and now, reportedly, confirmed directly by Bolton as coming from Trump's mouth.

      --Sam
      "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        I'm sure to the Trump support crowd this wont nean anything, but the NYT is reporting that drafts of Bolton's book have him saying the president wanted the aid held till he got answer to the inquires he had requested.

        Given these inquiries were about the server and the bidens, well what more does a rational person need to know Trump did what he is accused of. The irrational folks that have sworn fielty will need more of course, but the fat lady just sang.

        https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/u...gtype=Homepage

        Source: above

        President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

        The president’s statement as described by Mr. Bolton could undercut a key element of his impeachment defense: that the holdup in aid was separate from Mr. Trump’s requests that Ukraine announce investigations into his perceived enemies, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son Hunter Biden, who had worked for a Ukrainian energy firm while his father was in office.

        © Copyright Original Source



        The opera is over. Trump did it.
        Of course he did. The opera has long been over for everyone except Trump's Evangelical support base and the Senators who fear them at the election. But it will be harder for these Senators to deny Bolton as a witness given that his 'testimony' is now public via the draft of his new book.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          I'm sure to the Trump support crowd this wont nean anything,

          So why are you posting it at all? You've (finally) recognised that your previous approach has had no success in converting people to your point of view, but you're still banging away with it.

          Are you now just satisfying your ego (I'm right and those who disagree do so because they're mentally and morally deficient); or playing to the crowd (If I post this, JimL and Sam will tell me how right I am, and how wrong everyone else is)?

          Either way, sad.


          Starting a post supposedly meant to offer data for a change of opinion with that pretty much guarantees that you're not going to get a change of opinion, and padding it with more insults "The irrational folks that have sworn fielty will need more of course" just ensures that your pet narrative of 'I'm fighting the good fight for truth, justice, and apple pie' can't be challenged by (a) someone unexpectedly agreeing with you (since you've already told anyone like that that they are irrational morons) or; (b) someone giving a different perspective that gets you to rethink your view on this particular item (since you've already prejudiced yourself against anyone who disagrees with you).

          Therefore this is not a sincere, good-faith attempt to persuade people who might disagree, nor is it a sincere attempt to get to the truth on the matter (since you're not interested in any possibility of anything but what you've already decided).

          IOW, it's a waste of time, and unhealthy for you as a Christian to engage in such behaviour.


          Originally posted by oximixmudd
          but the NYT is reporting that drafts of Bolton's book have him saying the president wanted the aid held till he got answer to the inquires he had requested.

          Given these inquiries were about the server and the bidens, well what more does a rational person need to know Trump did what he is accused of. The irrational folks that have sworn fielty will need more of course, but the fat lady just sang.

          https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/u...gtype=Homepage

          Source: above

          President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

          The presidentÂ’s statement as described by Mr. Bolton could undercut a key element of his impeachment defense: that the holdup in aid was separate from Mr. TrumpÂ’s requests that Ukraine announce investigations into his perceived enemies, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son Hunter Biden, who had worked for a Ukrainian energy firm while his father was in office.

          © Copyright Original Source



          The opera is over. Trump did it.

          (1) Was the aid actually delivered or not?

          (2) When did Biden start his campaign for the Presidency?
          ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
            So why are you posting it at all? You've (finally) recognised that your previous approach has had no success in converting people to your point of view, but you're still banging away with it.

            Are you now just satisfying your ego (I'm right and those who disagree do so because they're mentally and morally deficient); or playing to the crowd (If I post this, JimL and Sam will tell me how right I am, and how wrong everyone else is)?

            Either way, sad.


            Starting a post supposedly meant to offer data for a change of opinion with that pretty much guarantees that you're not going to get a change of opinion, and padding it with more insults "The irrational folks that have sworn fielty will need more of course" just ensures that your pet narrative of 'I'm fighting the good fight for truth, justice, and apple pie' can't be challenged by (a) someone unexpectedly agreeing with you (since you've already told anyone like that that they are irrational morons) or; (b) someone giving a different perspective that gets you to rethink your view on this particular item (since you've already prejudiced yourself against anyone who disagrees with you).

            Therefore this is not a sincere, good-faith attempt to persuade people who might disagree, nor is it a sincere attempt to get to the truth on the matter (since you're not interested in any possibility of anything but what you've already decided).

            IOW, it's a waste of time, and unhealthy for you as a Christian to engage in such behaviour.





            (1) Was the aid actually delivered or not?

            (2) When did Biden start his campaign for the Presidency?

            Can't help but notice this chiding only goes one way -- indeed, pretty much only toward one person!

            (1) and (2) were both discussed heavily in the House managers' presentations. Are you actually asking unbiased questions and operating on the basis of making conclusions based on those answers?

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #21
              'We got him this time, really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 New York Times says so!!!'

              Here we go again.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sam View Post
                All extensively demonstrated over three days by the House managers
                Sam, remind me, are you still pretending to be neutral over this impeachment nothingburger? If yes, remember to wait till the other side has also presented its case before making conclusions such as 'extensively demonstrated' and revealing your bias. You're welcome.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  Sam, remind me, are you still pretending to be neutral over this impeachment nothingburger? If yes, remember to wait till the other side has also presented its case before making conclusions such as 'extensively demonstrated' and revealing your bias. You're welcome.
                  So far the other side has not attempted to address the issues of wrongdoing raised by House testimony. Rather they are whining about how the Dems have been trying to get rid of an "elected president". Is that all they've got?
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    WBolton's book reportedly says that Trump told him (Bolton) in August that he didn't want to release the $391 million in aid to Ukraine until he got material from the Biden and DNC server investigations. In other words, until he got his end of the quid pro quo, by that time tied up in both the arrangement over a WH meeting and security aid.
                    "Reportedly said".

                    But again, it seems nobody told the Ukrainian government since they were never told about the temporary hold, and they have repeatedly said they felt no pressure,, so...
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sam View Post
                      Can't help but notice this chiding only goes one way -- indeed, pretty much only toward one person!
                      You make no sense... ... am I supposed to 'chide' someone else for oxmixmudd's post?? I'm talking to who I want to talk to, who I hope might see something in what I say. Some people I don't feel have open ears, or I've already talked to them on an issue, so there's no point continuing to talk to them.


                      Who made you 'Charles', anyway?

                      Do you 'chide' people on all sides? No. I know you like to kiss up to Juvenal, 'cause you'd like to think you're as smart as he is.


                      Originally posted by Sam
                      (1) and (2) were both discussed heavily in the House managers' presentations. Are you actually asking unbiased questions and operating on the basis of making conclusions based on those answers?

                      --Sam


                      Yeah. I'm not an over-invested American who thinks he's smarter than most, like you.


                      There's your share of the 'chiding'. I got in a shot at Charles, and Juvenal, too. Hope you're satisfied.
                      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        "Reportedly said".

                        But again, it seems nobody told the Ukrainian government since they were never told about the temporary hold, and they have repeatedly said they felt no pressure,, so...
                        As I said, this will not be enough for the Trump support band. This is the eyewitness testimony you guys railed about fo months. Nah, tgerecare no eyewitnesses you said. Well here you go. Reaction. First it's a nyt sources say, now its 'he's lying', and, of course, in the wind failing all else is 'it doesnt matter'. Bottom line, for the Trump supporter, he can shoot someone in broad daylight and you will still be with him. All this blather is just whatever excuse to support him hasn't been shown to be false yet.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                          'We got him this time, really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 New York Times says so!!!'

                          Here we go again.
                          The book is released demi- that excuse lasted about 6 hours. Please move on to 'he's lying', or better yet just move on to the 'coup de gras' "Trump is king and so he makes the law", 'cause this is not about what he did, this is about supporting him no matter what 'cause he's "God's man" - or whatever reason it is you tell yourself that supporting trump beats any and all alternatives, no matter what he has done, is doing, or will do.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                            I know you like to kiss up to Juvenal, 'cause you'd like to think you're as smart as he [thinks he] is.
                            Small correction...
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              This is the eyewitness testimony you guys railed about fo months.
                              Is it? Since I can't access the original article, I've had to pick up bits and pieces from other news outlets, and everything I'm seeing suggests this is another typical "sources say" New York Times hit piece. It seems nobody at the Times has actually seen the alleged transcript themselves, and the report is based on what their anonymous sources claim the transcript says, a transcript which Bolton's lawyer says was carefully controlled, so we don't even know if these anonymous sources even had access to it, or if this is just more office gossip being passed off as something more than it really is.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                I'm sure to the Trump support crowd this wont nean anything, but the NYT is reporting that drafts of Bolton's book have him saying the president wanted the aid held till he got answer to the inquires he had requested.

                                Given these inquiries were about the server and the bidens, well what more does a rational person need to know Trump did what he is accused of. The irrational folks that have sworn fielty will need more of course, but the fat lady just sang.

                                https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/u...gtype=Homepage

                                Source: above

                                President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

                                The president’s statement as described by Mr. Bolton could undercut a key element of his impeachment defense: that the holdup in aid was separate from Mr. Trump’s requests that Ukraine announce investigations into his perceived enemies, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son Hunter Biden, who had worked for a Ukrainian energy firm while his father was in office.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                The opera is over. Trump did it.
                                I have no reason to believe John "axe-to-grind" Bolton.

                                But in any case, it doesn't matter. Trump could have withheld the money until Zelensky said "pretty please" for all I care. Conditions to handouts of US tax dollars should be withheld for any reason, IMO.

                                Comment

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