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This is the place for quiet meditations and reflections. No debate is permitted, and we ask that the fact that this is a Christian-owned site be respected in that the majority of the spiritual reflections expressed here will be Christian in perspective. We ask that mediations that are blatantly unorthodox or contrary to Christianity not be posted. Respectful interaction and posting by those of other beliefs is permitted. Moderators are given wide discretion and latitude as to the appropriateness of posts in this area.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by myth
    I'd guess that before the modern information age, (religious) songs served as a means of storytelling and a way of teaching theology in a much bigger way than they do now. In the age of 24-hour news cycles, online university education, and Google...modern praise and worship music is being intentionally written to evoke a sense of reverence and worship, with less emphasis on a detailed message or well-articulated theology, because it's looking to fill a very niche role. Additionally, I'd point out that music with complex lyrics seems suited to an environment where there are less instruments playing the music.
    God hasn't changed. Why should the songs that point to Him and teach sound doctrine change to suit the culture? And the church we follow often has full orchestra and a pipe organ, and they use sound hymns and some new ones by folk like the Getty's who write wonderful modern hymns.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
      God hasn't changed. Why should the songs that point to Him and teach sound doctrine change to suit the culture? And the church we follow often has full orchestra and a pipe organ, and they use sound hymns and some new ones by folk like the Getty's who write wonderful modern hymns.
      Why should the songs not change? Unless we're talking about music that teaches unsound doctrine or heresy, I don't follow your argument.

      By that logic, your church should not be using "modern" hymns or any musical instrumentation that wasn't around during the founding of the early Church. You should be sticking to animal-skin drums, cymbals, and basic horn instruments as well as whatever song lyrics you can find from the early church (the Psalms would be a great source, I suppose). Because if the songs point the Him and teach sound doctrine, why should they change to suit our culture?
      "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by myth View Post
        Why should the songs not change? Unless we're talking about music that teaches unsound doctrine or heresy, I don't follow your argument.

        By that logic, your church should not be using "modern" hymns or any musical instrumentation that wasn't around during the founding of the early Church. You should be sticking to animal-skin drums, cymbals, and basic horn instruments as well as whatever song lyrics you can find from the early church (the Psalms would be a great source, I suppose). Because if the songs point the Him and teach sound doctrine, why should they change to suit our culture?
        I am referring to modern music that doesn't point to God but points to the person singing. Music that doesn't teach the deep theological truths about God and His nature but fall back on human emotions. That is the majority of modern worship music.

        It is designed to bring about emotional response by its repetition and banal words. It is, really, dumbed down music for dumbed down people who are not taught the deep theological things of the Lord.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I am referring to modern music that doesn't point to God but points to the person singing. Music that doesn't teach the deep theological truths about God and His nature but fall back on human emotions. That is the majority of modern worship music.

          It is designed to bring about emotional response by its repetition and banal words. It is, really, dumbed down music for dumbed down people who are not taught the deep theological things of the Lord.
          Hmm, ok. Please don't take the rest of what I ask as sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious in your view.

          On what basis are you deciding that the music points to the person singing and not to God? Are there any examples you can think of? I'm curious because, well, most of the modern praise and worship music I've heard is so light-footed theologically and vague in detail (the 7-11 trope, lol) that one could interpret multiple shades of meaning to the lyrics. Is it necessary for music in the church to teach "deep theology", or is it ok for the music to promote a reverence of God and a mindfulness of the Numinous?

          Seriously, most of the modern worship music I've heard is not teaching "deep theological things", but at the same time it's not advocating heresy either. I think it more plausible to advance an argument that some modern worship music is performed in a way that glorifies the person singing, but I'm not so sure it's common for the lyrics to glorify the person singing.

          If the music promotes a worshipful mindset in preparation for the preaching of God's Word, and assuming that the preaching is biblically sound....I'm really having trouble seeing what the problem is.
          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            Occasionally, you encounter the variant of 11 words sung 7 times.
            Yeah, good to switch it up occasionally to break the monotony.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #36
              Responding selectively....

              Originally posted by myth View Post
              I'm interested by how many people here don't like modern worship music.
              I'm good with newer music that...
              A) Actually SAYS something - some content - rather than just breathless ooing about deer panting for water
              2) and is SINGABLE -- something that has a recognizable melody that doesn't just bounce up and down with no rhyme or reason.

              Some of the "Modern Hymn Movement" stuff is at the top of my list for "other than standard hymns".

              I grew up with hymns and therefore have a nostalgic fondness for them, but by and large I always found them boring. It was almost like they put me into a comatose state of near-sleep. Maybe because of my youth, I just wasn't interested in the lyrics.

              But modern worship music was even more boring to me, depending on how it was presented. As in, if you're playing it with just a piano and some vocals, I just can't get into it. So compared to that presentation, I actually preferred a lot of the hymns.

              For reference, my personal preference in music runs to rock, metal and metalcore bands like Demon Hunter, Disciple, Red, August Burns Red, Skillet, and Thousand Foot Krutch to name a few. It's music that's..."busier" than most hymns or modern worship songs.

              So, I went through a period of time not that long ago where I didn't regularly attend church. I wasn't in rebellion against God or anything, I just had trouble finding a church where I felt like I belonged and for years my work schedule made regular attendance difficult.

              So a little over a year ago I began to feel convicted about not having found a church family. I started looking for a church again, including looking further away from where I live than I had previously explored. I landed at this big (for our area church) with a modern praise and worship band. And you know what? For the first time in my life, I found that modern praise and worship music actually enhanced the worship experience! Keep in mind, I'm saying this as someone who's made all the same jokes about modern worship music (and it's still not something I regularly choose to listen to on my own).

              I'd guess that before the modern information age, (religious) songs served as a means of storytelling and a way of teaching theology in a much bigger way than they do now. In the age of 24-hour news cycles, online university education, and Google...modern praise and worship music is being intentionally written to evoke a sense of reverence and worship, with less emphasis on a detailed message or well-articulated theology, because it's looking to fill a very niche role. Additionally, I'd point out that music with complex lyrics seems suited to an environment where there are less instruments playing the music.

              The choice of music in worship is largely a matter of preference. My church makes a nod to those who still like the hymns by doing a monthly hymn-service, since all the other services have modern worship music.
              You've made me think about why I think about this.
              In several recent experiences, the "Praise and Worship Team", to me, seems so much like they're doing their own little thing up there - performing - and in their own little world. At one of the Churches I visited, it really seemed like the P&WT thought they were "all that and a bag of chips" --- there just seemed to act like they were above everybody else, not even joining in on the fellowship part, coming in at the beginning of the service, going right to "the stage", and leaving immediately after their "performance". It was a tad off-putting.

              Also, CP: glad to hear things are going well for your church! :P
              If it gets any better, I don't know what I'm gonna do!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Responding selectively....



                I'm good with newer music that...
                A) Actually SAYS something - some content - rather than just breathless ooing about deer panting for water
                2) and is SINGABLE -- something that has a recognizable melody that doesn't just bounce up and down with no rhyme or reason.

                Some of the "Modern Hymn Movement" stuff is at the top of my list for "other than standard hymns".



                You've made me think about why I think about this.
                In several recent experiences, the "Praise and Worship Team", to me, seems so much like they're doing their own little thing up there - performing - and in their own little world. At one of the Churches I visited, it really seemed like the P&WT thought they were "all that and a bag of chips" --- there just seemed to act like they were above everybody else, not even joining in on the fellowship part, coming in at the beginning of the service, going right to "the stage", and leaving immediately after their "performance". It was a tad off-putting.



                If it gets any better, I don't know what I'm gonna do!
                I've visited places where I felt like the praise and worship just wasn't authentic. It's hard to quantify why I thought that about some places and not where I go to church now. Our team does leave the stage after their set, with only some coming to sit any in given service. But that doesn't look so bad to me, as I'm serving on the security team and know that their team is there for about four to six hours on Sunday mornings, then again Sunday evenings, and some of them again on Wednesdays...plus their rehearsals during the week. Most sit with their family during one service, and fellowship in the lobby area during the other services...so they're actually listening to the Sunday morning sermon three times in a row (since we have the service broadcast on TVs in the lobby).

                But what you're talking about is why I had a hard time worshiping at some churches. I just couldn't get into it if the worship team seemed self-serving. And then other churches, the preaching was a little too "theology-light" or even more happy-go-lucky Prosperity Gospel nonsense. Others, I sensed theological differences that might eventually create trouble.
                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by myth View Post
                  I've visited places where I felt like the praise and worship just wasn't authentic. It's hard to quantify why I thought that about some places and not where I go to church now. Our team does leave the stage after their set, with only some coming to sit any in given service. But that doesn't look so bad to me, as I'm serving on the security team and know that their team is there for about four to six hours on Sunday mornings, then again Sunday evenings, and some of them again on Wednesdays...plus their rehearsals during the week. Most sit with their family during one service, and fellowship in the lobby area during the other services...so they're actually listening to the Sunday morning sermon three times in a row (since we have the service broadcast on TVs in the lobby).

                  But what you're talking about is why I had a hard time worshiping at some churches. I just couldn't get into it if the worship team seemed self-serving. And then other churches, the preaching was a little too "theology-light" or even more happy-go-lucky Prosperity Gospel nonsense. Others, I sensed theological differences that might eventually create trouble.
                  Yeah, I think I've already mentioned this, but the P&WT would do songs with their eyes closed, "looking up", and (forgive the judgmental sound of this) "be spiritual", but they seemed totally oblivious to anything the congregation was doing.

                  In the Bible Church I visited (for more than a few Sundays) the people would largely just be "standing there" while the P&WT went through their 'performance', but every once in a while, they would sing an old hymn, and I'd look around and EVERYBODY would be singing 'with gusto'. I want to shout "HEY --- DO YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING??????"

                  You're not LEADING if nobody is FOLLOWING - all you're doing is PERFORMING.

                  On the other hand, I was in another Bible Church where the P&WT seemed genuinely engaged with the audience, and it was evident that they were actually LEADING in worship, not just performing.

                  So....
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    OK, then there's the local Cowboy Church (from which we just gained a few families) that has (according to their own radio ads) "an Opry Class Country Worship Team". I know three of these guys personally, and they play at the local tavern on Friday and Saturday nights -- FOR REAL!

                    This past Valentine's day, their radio ad actually said "Come to Church for a special Valentine's Dance and have a BootScootBoogie Good Time!" Their background music for this ad was, indeed, "Boot Scoot Boogie".

                    But they DO draw a crowd!!!!
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by myth View Post
                      Hmm, ok. Please don't take the rest of what I ask as sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious in your view.

                      On what basis are you deciding that the music points to the person singing and not to God? Are there any examples you can think of? I'm curious because, well, most of the modern praise and worship music I've heard is so light-footed theologically and vague in detail (the 7-11 trope, lol) that one could interpret multiple shades of meaning to the lyrics. Is it necessary for music in the church to teach "deep theology", or is it ok for the music to promote a reverence of God and a mindfulness of the Numinous?

                      Seriously, most of the modern worship music I've heard is not teaching "deep theological things", but at the same time it's not advocating heresy either. I think it more plausible to advance an argument that some modern worship music is performed in a way that glorifies the person singing, but I'm not so sure it's common for the lyrics to glorify the person singing.

                      If the music promotes a worshipful mindset in preparation for the preaching of God's Word, and assuming that the preaching is biblically sound....I'm really having trouble seeing what the problem is.
                      Here are a couple of examples of bad "worship" music.

                      "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever"

                      Over the mountains and the sea,
                      Your river runs with love for me,
                      And I will open up my heart
                      And let the healer set me free.
                      I'm happy to be in the truth,
                      And I will daily lift my hands:
                      For I will always sing of when
                      Your love came down.

                      I could sing of your love forever,
                      I could sing of your love forever,
                      I could sing of your love forever,
                      I could sing of your love forever.
                      I could sing of your love forever.

                      Oh, I feel like dancing
                      It's foolishness I know;
                      But when the world has seen the light,
                      They will dance with joy,
                      Like we're dancing now.


                      So light on truth and heavy on repetition. Repetition, used properly, is a good tool to help us remember certain truths, but used in this way is akin to "vain repetitions" which the pagans were guilty of in Paul's time.

                      Another badly repetitive song with little substance:

                      "Good, Good Father"

                      I've seen many searching for answers far and wide
                      But I know we're all searching
                      For answers only you provide
                      'Cause you know just what we need
                      Before we say a word

                      You're a good good father
                      It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                      And I'm loved by you
                      It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am

                      Because you are perfect in all of your ways
                      You are perfect in all of your ways
                      You are perfect in all of your ways to us
                      You are perfect in all of your ways
                      You are perfect in all of your ways
                      You are perfect in all of your ways to us

                      Oh, it's love so undeniable
                      I, I can hardly speak
                      Peace so unexplainable
                      I, I can hardly think
                      As you call me deeper still
                      As you call me deeper still
                      As you call me deeper still
                      Into love, love, love

                      You're a good good father
                      It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                      And I'm loved by you
                      It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
                      You're a good good father
                      It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                      And I'm loved by you
                      It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am

                      You're a good good father
                      It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                      And I'm loved by you
                      It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
                      You're a good good father
                      You are perfect in all of your ways
                      It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                      And I'm loved by you
                      You are perfect in all of your ways
                      It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am


                      This one could be about a human, because it doesn't even mention God or Christ:

                      "Draw Me Close"

                      Draw me close to you
                      Never let me go
                      I lay it all down again
                      To hear you say that I'm your friend

                      You are my desire
                      No one else will do
                      'Cause nothing else can take your place
                      To feel the warmth of your embrace

                      Help me find the way
                      Bring me back to you
                      You're all I want
                      You're all I've ever needed
                      You're all I want

                      Help me know you are near
                      Draw me close to you
                      Never let me go
                      I lay it all down again
                      To hear you say that I'm your friend

                      You are my desire
                      No one else will do
                      'Cause nothing else can take your place
                      To feel the warmth of your embrace

                      Help me find the way
                      Bring me back to you
                      You're all I want
                      You're all I've ever needed
                      You're all I want
                      Help me know you are near
                      You're all I want
                      You're all I've ever needed
                      You're all I want

                      Help me know you are near
                      Help me know you are near
                      Help me know you are near


                      And you know as well as I do that there are a myriad of songs that really don't belong in a church setting that people are singing because they are catchy, or repetitive and easy to remember, etc.

                      Look. Music is not the be all and end all of worship. More important aspects of worship are the message and the scripture and the prayer. Music is an add on, not all there is and worship doesn't stop when the music is over. The music should be memorable because it focuses on God and not on the ones singing.

                      It is not entertainment, it is a collective joining together to sing about God's attributes and what He has done for us and what He will do for us. There are some bad hymns from the past, I'm not denying that, but the wealth of music that is available to us that teaches sound doctrine and doesn't attempt to goad us into an emotional response is worthy of us paying attention to.

                      As I've already said, shallow teaching leads to shallow worship in music. Entertainment that takes the place of sound scriptural teaching is rampant and is helping to destroy our churches in their attempt to become more palatable to the world. As we are instructed in scripture to worship God in spirit and and truth, we cannot try to fit into the culture. We are to use both our intellect and our emotion to worship God, and not be swept away by banal words and emotive lighting and all that so many churches throw into their "worship". Raw emotion disconnected from any aspect of the truth of God isn't worship at all. It's a way to manipulate people's hearts and minds.

                      And music isn't an evangelistic tool as so many churches use it these days. It's for the saints (believers) to sing these songs to the glory of God. Unbelievers don't have a song to sing to the Lord. So to try to use music to get butts in the pews is nothing more than a marketing tool. Not entertainment, supposed to lure people into the church. That's why I have an issue with "Christian Rock". It's trying so hard to attract people with that style that any thinking person hearing it would say, "I don't have to go to church to hear music like that, I listen to it everyday in the world". Music should not be used to try to get unbelievers to like us.


                      Every age has seen it's own music styles come and go. There is a lot to be said about the difference in content in the music today, as opposed to style. Sometimes the style doesn't matter. We have many styles of music in our world, and it is more what is contained in the words that go with the music rather than the music itself.

                      Having said that, some music styles used for church are just wrong. That includes, imo, rock and anything else that the world uses to portray sex and drugs. You can't get people to remember the good content of a song when it's wrapped up in a vehicle that can't be separated from the worldly taint of that medium.

                      I have gone on and on here, and there is so much more involved with music and the church. But it's suppertime.

                      The main point is that worship is to be God-centred and not me-centred. Here is a chart I found that goes into some detail about what the difference is between those 2 kinds of worship. I find it pretty good.

                      http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork2.html


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Yeah, I think I've already mentioned this, but the P&WT would do songs with their eyes closed, "looking up", and (forgive the judgmental sound of this) "be spiritual", but they seemed totally oblivious to anything the congregation was doing.

                        In the Bible Church I visited (for more than a few Sundays) the people would largely just be "standing there" while the P&WT went through their 'performance', but every once in a while, they would sing an old hymn, and I'd look around and EVERYBODY would be singing 'with gusto'. I want to shout "HEY --- DO YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING??????"

                        You're not LEADING if nobody is FOLLOWING - all you're doing is PERFORMING.

                        On the other hand, I was in another Bible Church where the P&WT seemed genuinely engaged with the audience, and it was evident that they were actually LEADING in worship, not just performing.

                        So....
                        We read music. I find it really difficult to sing a song I don't know without the music in front of me. I sing alto, and I can't sing harmony if I don't know the melody. When words are thrown up on a screen and the "worship team" is singing, I have no idea what to do. I need the music.

                        And getting people to learn the song by repeating it over and over just adds to the repetitive nature of so many contemporary songs. If you can't give me sheet music, I can't sing it.

                        And it's been our experience also that when an "old" hymn is sung, most of the congregation is able to join in.

                        Another thing that bothered me in one church is that an elderly lady used to sit behind us. When we stood up, she couldn't see the screen, so we sat down out of consideration for her. Well, we were called on the carpet for that little apparent faux pas, told that we weren't being worshipful enough.

                        The whole mindset of contemporary music is faulty. There are good songs that are out there that are contemporary, as I've already said, but they aren't being sung that much in churches that like modern music because the theology is too deep. Really, look up some of the Getty's music and you will see the depth of truth in those modern songs.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I personally dislike modern worship music but I don't get the argument that it's bad *because* the style is modern and that organ music is inherently better. Organ music was new at one point in time, too. Organs were not around at the time of Christ.

                          If the issue is with the lyrical content, I'm in full agreement there. However, I do note that some contemporary musicians like Sons of Korah seem to have adopted lyrics taken directly from Psalms, which I don't think anybody should object to. (They don't seem to be the majority.)

                          One argument that's not terrible that Patheos blogger Jonathan Aigner promotes is that the organ is specially designed to carry throughout the combination without drowning out the voice of the congregation, whereas the guitar is not. I think that's actually a decent argument for traditional worship. (He does allow that small churches that can't afford an organ are fine in using what they can afford.)
                          Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-03-2020, 07:29 PM.
                          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by me
                            Really, look up some of the Getty's music and you will see the depth of truth in those modern songs.
                            Here. I looked some up for you.

                            One by Vicki Cook:



                            "Before the Throne of God Above"

                            Before the throne of God above
                            I have a strong and perfect plea
                            A great High Priest whose name is love
                            Who ever lives and pleads for me
                            My name is graven on His hands
                            My name is written on His heart
                            I know that while in heav'n He stands
                            No tongue can bid me thence depart
                            No tongue can bid me thence depart

                            When Satan tempts me to despair
                            And tells me of the guilt within
                            Upward I look and see Him there
                            Who made an end of all my sin
                            Because the sinless Savior died
                            My sinful soul is counted free
                            For God the Just is satisfied
                            To look on Him and pardon me
                            To look on Him and pardon me

                            Behold Him there, the risen Lamb
                            My perfect, spotless Righteousness
                            The great unchangeable I AM
                            The King of glory and of grace
                            One with Himself, I cannot die
                            My soul is purchased by His blood
                            My life is hid with Christ on high
                            With Christ my Savior and my God
                            With Christ my Savior and my God"


                            Here are 3 by Keith and Kristyn Getty:

                            I love this one.

                            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENtL_li4GbE

                            "In Christ Alone"

                            In Christ alone my hope is found
                            He is my light, my strength, my song
                            This Cornerstone, this solid ground
                            Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
                            What heights of love, what depths of peace
                            When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
                            My Comforter, my All in All
                            Here in the love of Christ I stand

                            In Christ alone, who took on flesh
                            Fullness of God in helpless babe
                            This gift of love and righteousness
                            Scorned by the ones He came to save
                            'Til on that cross as Jesus died
                            The wrath of God was satisfied
                            For every sin on Him was laid
                            Here in the death of Christ I live

                            There in the ground His body lay
                            Light of the World by darkness slain
                            Then bursting forth in glorious Day
                            Up from the grave He rose again
                            And as He stands in victory
                            Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
                            For I am His and He is mine
                            Bought with the precious blood of Christ

                            No guilt in life, no fear in death
                            This is the power of Christ in me

                            From life's first cry to final breath
                            Jesus commands my destiny
                            No power of hell, no scheme of man
                            Can ever pluck me from His hand
                            'Til He returns or calls me home
                            Here in the power of Christ I'll stand"


                            And:



                            "Creation Sings the Father's Song"

                            Creation sings the Father's song;
                            He calls the sun to wake the dawn
                            And run the course of day
                            Till evening falls in crimson rays.
                            His fingerprints in flakes of snow,
                            His breath upon this spinning globe,
                            He charts the eagle's flight;
                            Commands the newborn baby's cry.

                            Hallelujah! Let all creation stand and sing,
                            "Hallelujah!" Fill the earth with songs of worship;
                            Tell the wonders of creation's King.

                            Creation gazed upon His face;
                            The ageless One in time's embrace
                            Unveiled the Father's plan
                            Of reconciling God and man.
                            A second Adam walked the earth,
                            Whose blameless life would break the curse,
                            Whose death would set us free
                            To live with Him eternally.

                            Creation longs for His return,
                            When Christ shall reign upon the earth;
                            The bitter wars that rage
                            Are birth pains of a coming age.
                            When He renews the land and sky,
                            All heav'n will sing and earth reply
                            With one resplendent theme: The glories of our God and King!


                            And: This song has been a rock for me the past few years as we've gone through some stuff.



                            "Still, My Soul Be Still"

                            Still my soul be still
                            And do not fear
                            Though winds of change may rage tomorrow
                            God is at your side
                            No longer dread
                            The fires of unexpected sorrow

                            God You are my God
                            And I will trust in You and not be shaken
                            Lord of peace renew
                            A steadfast spirit within me
                            To rest in You alone

                            Still my soul be still
                            Do not be moved
                            By lesser lights and fleeting shadows
                            Hold onto His ways
                            With shield of faith
                            Against temptations flaming arrows

                            Still my soul be still
                            Do not forsake
                            The Truth you learned in the beginning
                            Wait upon the Lord
                            And hope will rise
                            As stars appear when day is dimming


                            Now compare these words with the ones I posted in my previous post and tell me the difference.
                            Last edited by mossrose; 05-04-2020, 09:40 AM.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              Here are a couple of examples of bad "worship" music.

                              "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever"

                              Over the mountains and the sea,
                              Your river runs with love for me,
                              And I will open up my heart
                              And let the healer set me free.
                              I'm happy to be in the truth,
                              And I will daily lift my hands:
                              For I will always sing of when
                              Your love came down.

                              I could sing of your love forever,
                              I could sing of your love forever,
                              I could sing of your love forever,
                              I could sing of your love forever.
                              I could sing of your love forever.

                              Oh, I feel like dancing
                              It's foolishness I know;
                              But when the world has seen the light,
                              They will dance with joy,
                              Like we're dancing now.


                              So light on truth and heavy on repetition. Repetition, used properly, is a good tool to help us remember certain truths, but used in this way is akin to "vain repetitions" which the pagans were guilty of in Paul's time.

                              Another badly repetitive song with little substance:

                              "Good, Good Father"

                              I've seen many searching for answers far and wide
                              But I know we're all searching
                              For answers only you provide
                              'Cause you know just what we need
                              Before we say a word

                              You're a good good father
                              It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                              And I'm loved by you
                              It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am

                              Because you are perfect in all of your ways
                              You are perfect in all of your ways
                              You are perfect in all of your ways to us
                              You are perfect in all of your ways
                              You are perfect in all of your ways
                              You are perfect in all of your ways to us

                              Oh, it's love so undeniable
                              I, I can hardly speak
                              Peace so unexplainable
                              I, I can hardly think
                              As you call me deeper still
                              As you call me deeper still
                              As you call me deeper still
                              Into love, love, love

                              You're a good good father
                              It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                              And I'm loved by you
                              It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
                              You're a good good father
                              It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                              And I'm loved by you
                              It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am

                              You're a good good father
                              It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                              And I'm loved by you
                              It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
                              You're a good good father
                              You are perfect in all of your ways
                              It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
                              And I'm loved by you
                              You are perfect in all of your ways
                              It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am


                              This one could be about a human, because it doesn't even mention God or Christ:

                              "Draw Me Close"

                              Draw me close to you
                              Never let me go
                              I lay it all down again
                              To hear you say that I'm your friend

                              You are my desire
                              No one else will do
                              'Cause nothing else can take your place
                              To feel the warmth of your embrace

                              Help me find the way
                              Bring me back to you
                              You're all I want
                              You're all I've ever needed
                              You're all I want

                              Help me know you are near
                              Draw me close to you
                              Never let me go
                              I lay it all down again
                              To hear you say that I'm your friend

                              You are my desire
                              No one else will do
                              'Cause nothing else can take your place
                              To feel the warmth of your embrace

                              Help me find the way
                              Bring me back to you
                              You're all I want
                              You're all I've ever needed
                              You're all I want
                              Help me know you are near
                              You're all I want
                              You're all I've ever needed
                              You're all I want

                              Help me know you are near
                              Help me know you are near
                              Help me know you are near


                              And you know as well as I do that there are a myriad of songs that really don't belong in a church setting that people are singing because they are catchy, or repetitive and easy to remember, etc.

                              Look. Music is not the be all and end all of worship. More important aspects of worship are the message and the scripture and the prayer. Music is an add on, not all there is and worship doesn't stop when the music is over. The music should be memorable because it focuses on God and not on the ones singing.

                              It is not entertainment, it is a collective joining together to sing about God's attributes and what He has done for us and what He will do for us. There are some bad hymns from the past, I'm not denying that, but the wealth of music that is available to us that teaches sound doctrine and doesn't attempt to goad us into an emotional response is worthy of us paying attention to.

                              As I've already said, shallow teaching leads to shallow worship in music. Entertainment that takes the place of sound scriptural teaching is rampant and is helping to destroy our churches in their attempt to become more palatable to the world. As we are instructed in scripture to worship God in spirit and and truth, we cannot try to fit into the culture. We are to use both our intellect and our emotion to worship God, and not be swept away by banal words and emotive lighting and all that so many churches throw into their "worship". Raw emotion disconnected from any aspect of the truth of God isn't worship at all. It's a way to manipulate people's hearts and minds.

                              And music isn't an evangelistic tool as so many churches use it these days. It's for the saints (believers) to sing these songs to the glory of God. Unbelievers don't have a song to sing to the Lord. So to try to use music to get butts in the pews is nothing more than a marketing tool. Not entertainment, supposed to lure people into the church. That's why I have an issue with "Christian Rock". It's trying so hard to attract people with that style that any thinking person hearing it would say, "I don't have to go to church to hear music like that, I listen to it everyday in the world". Music should not be used to try to get unbelievers to like us.


                              Every age has seen it's own music styles come and go. There is a lot to be said about the difference in content in the music today, as opposed to style. Sometimes the style doesn't matter. We have many styles of music in our world, and it is more what is contained in the words that go with the music rather than the music itself.

                              Having said that, some music styles used for church are just wrong. That includes, imo, rock and anything else that the world uses to portray sex and drugs. You can't get people to remember the good content of a song when it's wrapped up in a vehicle that can't be separated from the worldly taint of that medium.

                              I have gone on and on here, and there is so much more involved with music and the church. But it's suppertime.

                              The main point is that worship is to be God-centred and not me-centred. Here is a chart I found that goes into some detail about what the difference is between those 2 kinds of worship. I find it pretty good.

                              http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork2.html
                              I'm sorry, but I asked for examples of music that points to the person singing and not God.Those songs are admittedly light on theology, but how do they point to the person singing and not God? The last one is ambiguous, sure. But the other two clearly have multiple references to God. Based on the lyrical content along, how is singing of God's love (for example) pointing towards ourselves? How is it even bad?

                              You have a personal preference, and that's fine. But you have yet to explain why church music MUST teach complex or "deep" theology, as you call it. I don't think it has to, as that's what the sermon and Bible study are for. I'm not arguing that heresy should be permitted. Far from it. But this seems to be a case of a judgmental attitude for music that isn't your preference, and you've yet to provide any sort of scriptural references for why your preferences are even better, let alone "right" as opposed to "wrong".

                              It's ok to have you own preferences for worship, but you're assuming your preference is better because of....well, no particular reason that I can see. Sort of like when a deacon in my old church called Christian rock music "demon music". Like...for real? They're literally singing about what God has done in their lives, but because it doesn't sound like country music it's "demon music".
                              Last edited by myth; 05-03-2020, 08:21 PM.
                              "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                                Here. I looked some up for you.

                                One by Vicki Cook:



                                "Before the Throne of God Above"

                                Before the throne of God above
                                I have a strong and perfect plea
                                A great High Priest whose name is love
                                Who ever lives and pleads for me
                                My name is graven on His hands
                                My name is written on His heart
                                I know that while in heav'n He stands
                                No tongue can bid me thence depart
                                No tongue can bid me thence depart

                                When Satan tempts me to despair
                                And tells me of the guilt within
                                Upward I look and see Him there
                                Who made an end of all my sin
                                Because the sinless Savior died
                                My sinful soul is counted free
                                For God the Just is satisfied
                                To look on Him and pardon me
                                To look on Him and pardon me

                                Behold Him there, the risen Lamb
                                My perfect, spotless Righteousness
                                The great unchangeable I AM
                                The King of glory and of grace
                                One with Himself, I cannot die
                                My soul is purchased by His blood
                                My life is hid with Christ on high
                                With Christ my Savior and my God
                                With Christ my Savior and my God"


                                Here are 3 by Keith and Kristyn Getty:

                                I love this one.



                                "In Christ Alone"

                                In Christ alone my hope is found
                                He is my light, my strength, my song
                                This Cornerstone, this solid ground
                                Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
                                What heights of love, what depths of peace
                                When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
                                My Comforter, my All in All
                                Here in the love of Christ I stand

                                In Christ alone, who took on flesh
                                Fullness of God in helpless babe
                                This gift of love and righteousness
                                Scorned by the ones He came to save
                                'Til on that cross as Jesus died
                                The wrath of God was satisfied
                                For every sin on Him was laid
                                Here in the death of Christ I live

                                There in the ground His body lay
                                Light of the World by darkness slain
                                Then bursting forth in glorious Day
                                Up from the grave He rose again
                                And as He stands in victory
                                Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
                                For I am His and He is mine
                                Bought with the precious blood of Christ

                                No guilt in life, no fear in death
                                This is the power of Christ in me

                                From life's first cry to final breath
                                Jesus commands my destiny
                                No power of hell, no scheme of man
                                Can ever pluck me from His hand
                                'Til He returns or calls me home
                                Here in the power of Christ I'll stand"


                                And:



                                "Creation Sings the Father's Song"

                                Creation sings the Father's song;
                                He calls the sun to wake the dawn
                                And run the course of day
                                Till evening falls in crimson rays.
                                His fingerprints in flakes of snow,
                                His breath upon this spinning globe,
                                He charts the eagle's flight;
                                Commands the newborn baby's cry.

                                Hallelujah! Let all creation stand and sing,
                                "Hallelujah!" Fill the earth with songs of worship;
                                Tell the wonders of creation's King.

                                Creation gazed upon His face;
                                The ageless One in time's embrace
                                Unveiled the Father's plan
                                Of reconciling God and man.
                                A second Adam walked the earth,
                                Whose blameless life would break the curse,
                                Whose death would set us free
                                To live with Him eternally.

                                Creation longs for His return,
                                When Christ shall reign upon the earth;
                                The bitter wars that rage
                                Are birth pains of a coming age.
                                When He renews the land and sky,
                                All heav'n will sing and earth reply
                                With one resplendent theme: The glories of our God and King!


                                And: This song has been a rock for me the past few years as we've gone through some stuff.



                                "Still, My Soul Be Still"

                                Still my soul be still
                                And do not fear
                                Though winds of change may rage tomorrow
                                God is at your side
                                No longer dread
                                The fires of unexpected sorrow

                                God You are my God
                                And I will trust in You and not be shaken
                                Lord of peace renew
                                A steadfast spirit within me
                                To rest in You alone

                                Still my soul be still
                                Do not be moved
                                By lesser lights and fleeting shadows
                                Hold onto His ways
                                With shield of faith
                                Against temptations flaming arrows

                                Still my soul be still
                                Do not forsake
                                The Truth you learned in the beginning
                                Wait upon the Lord
                                And hope will rise
                                As stars appear when day is dimming


                                Now compare these words with the ones I posted in my previous post and tell me the difference.
                                They're more complicated and develop more complete expressions of a message. Both sets seem to have theological themes.
                                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                                Comment

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