More Sanity From The Supreme Court...

[seer]

Makes sense...

In 5-4 ruling, Supreme Court allows Trump plan to deny green cards to those who may need government aid

DHS said it would expand the definition of "public charge" to apply to people whose entry could be denied because of concern they would depend on federal assistance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/sup...green-n1124056

[QuantaFille]

Hasn't this been the rule for a long time already?

[Starlight]

Hasn't this been the rule for a long time already?

Trump's expanding it slightly.

Worth bearing in mind that immigrants in general, and also illegal immigrants specifically, typically pay vastly more in taxes than they receive in govt benefits.

[simplicio]

Trump's expanding it slightly.

Worth bearing in mind that immigrants in general, and also illegal immigrants specifically, typically pay vastly more in taxes than they receive in govt benefits.

Complicating things is that immigrants need more assistance, helping them adjust to the new country and culture. Often the assistance is provided by private entities like a church, a public-private entity like a church ministry or Catholic Charities, or public entity.

The (usually) short term assistance is offset by becoming more quickly self sufficient, especially in areas without a large immigrant community. Like money spent on education, it is money well spent, paying dividends.

[QuantaFille]

Trump's expanding it slightly.

Worth bearing in mind that immigrants in general, and also illegal immigrants specifically, typically pay vastly more in taxes than they receive in govt benefits.

If they are illegal, how are they paying taxes at all? Aren't illegals usually paid under the table? And if they receive very little in government assistance, it's because they aren't allowed to receive it, not that they don't need it.

[simplicio]

If they are illegal, how are they paying taxes at all? Aren't illegals usually paid under the table? And if they receive very little in government assistance, it's because they aren't allowed to receive it, not that they don't need it.

Many ways, the federal payroll tax is only one tax among many. Local sales taxes, excise taxes, even property taxes, if one is an owner, if one rents, it is indirectly paid

Green cards holders are usually issued a ss number and can work. Many of the proposed bills have included a clause about paying all back taxes, and paying into the system is seen as a good faith effort. Other times a false number is given and the worker hopes he can go through the season before it catches up. Season, migrant work typically lasts a few weeks (apple harvest is about three months, the heaviest demand for workers is the middle 4-6weeks).

Yes some illegal immigrants do own property.

Often an undocumented family is reluctant to take advantage of services that are available, they want to stay under the radar.

[Starlight]

If they are illegal, how are they paying taxes at all? Aren't illegals usually paid under the table

Any employer can break the law and pay any person under the table be they illegal immigrant or not, but this is not particularly common for illegal immigrants. It's not usually in the employer's interest to break the law if they don't have to. An employer who's okay with employing illegals will just not ask too closely about their immigration status, and ask for an IRS number. Over half of illegal immigrants have a valid IRS number to provide, and the other half just make up a random one and provide that, which both employers and the IRS happily accept.

The IRS, which loves to collect taxes, has a lot of special policies where illegal immigrants are concerned to encourage illegal immigrants to pay income taxes. This include an absolute promise of privacy when dealing with illegal immigrants, and a refusal to dob them in to other govt departments; a willingness to issue IRS numbers to illegals so they can file tax papers; and a cheerful attitude towards happily taking tax assigned to made up IRS numbers whenever they see them and not asking further questions.

So if the illegal immigrant has given a made up IRS number to their employer, their employer just docks the taxes from their pay as usual and sends it to the IRS as usual, and the illegal immigrant can't later file any paperwork to claim back tax rebates etc. But the majority of them do apply for an IRS number because then ten years down the road when they are applying for citizenship, they can hand the immigration court paperwork to show they've been dutifully paying their taxes for the last ten years like a good little American, and the immigrant community is aware the immigration courts love that sort of thing.

And, as simplicio pointed out, they will naturally end up paying all the various other kinds of taxes like sales, excise, property tax etc.

And, of course, the downside for illegals in general is they can't apply for any kind of government benefits, so they don't get to receive the usual government services they would usually be entitled to as a taxpayer.

[simplicio]

Any employer can break the law and pay any person under the table be they illegal immigrant or not, but this is not particularly common for illegal immigrants. It's not usually in the employer's interest to break the law if they don't have to. An employer who's okay with employing illegals will just not ask too closely about their immigration status, and ask for an IRS number. Over half of illegal immigrants have a valid IRS number to provide, and the other half just make up a random one and provide that, which both employers and the IRS happily accept.

The IRS, which loves to collect taxes, has a lot of special policies where illegal immigrants are concerned to encourage illegal immigrants to pay income taxes. This include an absolute promise of privacy when dealing with illegal immigrants, and a refusal to dob them in to other govt departments; a willingness to issue IRS numbers to illegals so they can file tax papers; and a cheerful attitude towards happily taking tax assigned to made up IRS numbers whenever they see them and not asking further questions.

So if the illegal immigrant has given a made up IRS number to their employer, their employer just docks the taxes from their pay as usual and sends it to the IRS as usual, and the illegal immigrant can't later file any paperwork to claim back tax rebates etc. But the majority of them do apply for an IRS number because then ten years down the road when they are applying for citizenship, they can hand the immigration court paperwork to show they've been dutifully paying their taxes for the last ten years like a good little American, and the immigrant community is aware the immigration courts love that sort of thing.

And, as simplicio pointed out, they will naturally end up paying all the various other kinds of taxes like sales, excise, property tax etc.

And, of course, the downside for illegals in general is they can't apply for any kind of government benefits, so they don't get to receive the usual government services they would usually be entitled to as a taxpayer.

Many of the government run services make a point of not asking for legal status. The day care programs for migrant children emphasize literacy and basic skills, and if the directors are good, they will also make connections with the local charities, the food pantries, used clothing and goods charities.

The families in need have hardly hit a gold mine.

January is the town and county real estate tax, April is income tax filing deadline, and September is the local school district tax, based on real estate values. Sales taxes are "hidden", each tax payment is small, but it is a major source for county, town, and state revenues.

The programs may be heavily funded by Washington, administered by state and sometimes with county involvement. One the one hand, a myriad of agencies have their finger in the pie, but on a practical level, the program is administered by a single agency, and will fight for funding to expand to meet the scope. (or wither away)

A privately run charity, such as a church, will limit itself to its resources, whether money or manpower, often staying within a small local area. The local church may ne efficient, but they also hesitate to move to meet a need when that need is town wide or county wide. An example is the summer programs for migrant children, if a local Catholic Church supplies the buildings and personnel (gratis) the problem of church state entanglements comes into play: And it is not just the seculars or atheists who have a problem, some Protestants fear the Catholic Church will gain undue influence in the family life.

We often oversimplify the real issues in running effective programs, the reality is more complex.