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Thread: Is there a Christian alternative to critical race theory?

  1. #161
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Lets start with post 91. I could not jump to the answer, because CRT is a non Christian theology, probably even antiChristian. Since it is a common mistake among Christians to assume knowledge of such a theory is acceptance of the theory I needed a disclaimer, note the final sentence in the first paragraph included " accepting CRT in a limited way is not an embrace of CRT". Perhaps the biggest objection to CRT is it origins in nonchristian thought.
    so if CRT is antiChristian why are you arguing so much about how the Baptists are embracing it?


    The illustration of the church incident is an example, of shared experience, which the bible offers little guidance, while CRT suggests a cause as well as a solution. Those inside the church did not recognize that the picture was racist. The watermelon patch around the white house was not an appeal to eat fruit, it used racial stereotypes.
    The bible offers a lot of guidance here. I already quoted Galatians 3 for you. If all human beings are your neighbors and brothers and sisters, then passing around a racist meme in church would be wrong. Pretty simple. How would CRT fix this?

    Another illustration, connected to my ignored question about the differences in perception of white and black Christians is that black Americans view racism as a shared experience, while white Americans generally see racism as an individual phenomenon. That fact underlies the different reactions from white and black Christians for two centuries. I have never seen an argument drawn from the bible, apart from using some other philosophy which focuses on race and its causes, as recognizing that fact. That is one conclusions which few conservative teachers have touched on.
    again, if Christians followed the bible's teachings, then nobody would be facing racism at all would they? If everyone followed CRT, would that end racism? Or would it just point it out more and divide people?


    But the most basic of all, if the Christian looks around and does not even recognize any racial problems existing, then there is no need to even start. But we had riots in the sixties, then a few years ago. The sixties reversed the obvious things, the easy ones to address, that did not 'cost' much. There was no cost associated with extending voting rights. But Ferguson happened, and some still see a problem...............
    Of course there is racism out there. We Christians recognize it. And we should be following the bible and that would solve it. Following CRT just passes blame around and divides the races. It doesn't solve anything.

    Does Galatians three account for the divergent views of black and white Christians?
    If black and white Christians each look at the other as their brothers and sisters in Christ then any differences would not matter. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves.


    And you STILL haven't given me an example scenario of a black and white Christian using CRT.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    so if CRT is antiChristian why are you arguing so much about how the Baptists are embracing it?
    Which is why I used the example about Nazis. To list something good Nazis did, is NOT embracing them.

    Using CRT as an analytic tool, is not antichristian, just as algebra, is not Muslim. I am arguing that the Baptists got it right with the resolution, remember.

    The bible offers a lot of guidance here. I already quoted Galatians 3 for you. If all human beings are your neighbors and brothers and sisters, then passing around a racist meme in church would be wrong. Pretty simple. How would CRT fix this?

    again, if Christians followed the bible's teachings, then nobody would be facing racism at all would they? If everyone followed CRT, would that end racism? Or would it just point it out more and divide people?
    CRT is [u]not about ending racism[/b], rather it is about looking at its causes, things which perpetuate it. The Bible does give some good info on its causes, rooted in original sin. But that does not point to the things in society, this society, which are causes, nor does it give much insight, other than generalities, about the things which perpetuate it.

    Not sure what you mean by "follow CRT". Do you mean it in the same way we use "follow the Bible"? Men were certain they were following the Bible in defense of slavery. If you mean by "follow" that it is used to identify problems, then the following would lead us to identifying the problems. Then we would need to make a decision about how to address it.

    Of course there is racism out there. We Christians recognize it. And we should be following the bible and that would solve it. Following CRT just passes blame around and divides the races. It doesn't solve anything.
    Okay, racism exists. Christians do not necessarily recognize it when and where it exists. But have you ever heard of Trayvon Martin or the Ferguson riots? Many insist that those things had nothing to do with racism, others insist that racism, pervasive, systemic, and structural racism was the cause. White Christians are more likely to point to the first than black Christians, and black Christians will likely point to the second. Christians of both races read the same bible, yet they come to different conclusions. One astute Christian attributed that to difference to sin! So, from the bible, which Christian is sinning?

    "CRT just passes the blame around" And you know that how? Is from reading about CRT? Or reading about CRT from people who start from the position of despising it?

    [quote]If black and white Christians each look at the other as their brothers and sisters in Christ then any differences would not matter. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves. [quote]

    And if everyone would live the faith as the Lord intended, we wouldn't really have any problems.

    And you STILL haven't given me an example scenario of a black and white Christian using CRT.
    I beg to differ. It is your misconceptions about CRT which are hindering you in this discussion. I have.

  3. #163
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Which is why I used the example about Nazis. To list something good Nazis did, is NOT embracing them.

    Using CRT as an analytic tool, is not antichristian, just as algebra, is not Muslim. I am arguing that the Baptists got it right with the resolution, remember.
    Yet you just said that it was antichristian.


    CRT is [u]not about ending racism[/b], rather it is about looking at its causes, things which perpetuate it. The Bible does give some good info on its causes, rooted in original sin. But that does not point to the things in society, this society, which are causes, nor does it give much insight, other than generalities, about the things which perpetuate it.
    You are right, it isn't about ending or solving racism. It actually continues it by dividing the races and blaming one race for everything (white privilege) while excusing racism from minorities because they have been mistreated in the past.

    Not sure what you mean by "follow CRT". Do you mean it in the same way we use "follow the Bible"? Men were certain they were following the Bible in defense of slavery. If you mean by "follow" that it is used to identify problems, then the following would lead us to identifying the problems. Then we would need to make a decision about how to address it.
    And if we treated everyone equally as the bible teaches, we wouldn't need to "identify" problems. Which is code for dividing people.




    And if everyone would live the faith as the Lord intended, we wouldn't really have any problems.
    Exactly. That is the answer to your OP question.

    I beg to differ. It is your misconceptions about CRT which are hindering you in this discussion. I have.
    That's fine, because I am tired wasting my time trying to get you to answer a simple question which you STILL managed to avoid. You remind me of Carpedm, a member we had here a while back that couldn't answer a direct question if his life depended on it. It was like nailing smoke to the wall. You are just as bad.

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  5. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yet you just said that it was antichristian.


    You are right, it isn't about ending or solving racism. It actually continues it by dividing the races and blaming one race for everything (white privilege) while excusing racism from minorities because they have been mistreated in the past.

    And if we treated everyone equally as the bible teaches, we wouldn't need to "identify" problems. Which is code for dividing people.




    Exactly. That is the answer to your OP question.



    That's fine, because I am tired wasting my time trying to get you to answer a simple question which you STILL managed to avoid. You remind me of Carpedm, a member we had here a while back that couldn't answer a direct question if his life depended on it. It was like nailing smoke to the wall. You are just as bad.
    Yes I did say that I thought it to be antichristian, and I also believe it. But the resolution is not adopting CRT as a philosophy and forming their theology around it. So basically this thread has 163 posts, and you do not realize what the discussion is even about.

    I say that I provided a sufficient answer, an example of CRT as a useful tool. While you are not sure what the discussion is about, you do not even know what CRT entails and entails as an analytic tool.

    Identifying a problem is NOT the same as dividing people. racism is an evil, a social evil. Pedophilia is an evil. And if you attend a large church, there is most likely some plan, which includes training at least some members on identifying the problem. Recognizing the problem is not what "divisive" means.

    The only ones who fully live out the Christian faith as the Lord intended are the ones who do not sin. If you have a practical solution to achieve that, I will listen. And then we won't need to worry about having to use CRT as an analytic tool, assessing social dynamics.

    I take it you have not read the resolution carefully. It might be lengthy but it contains about a dozen "Whereas" clauses which are like the assumptions or axioms, and about ten resolved clauses, some of which are not really deep.

  6. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    You asked in 94 what I supplied in 91. But it all hinges on one thing: Do black Christians see the white church as white Christians see it?
    emphasis mine

    Simplicio, the worldly CRT can only bring division because it looks for things that divide us, as shown by the above question from you, when we should be looking for and at what brings us together, The TRUTH. There is to be no white, black, red, brown or blue views of Christianity as those who follow the worldly CRT try to tell us, there is only the biblical view.

    There is only The Church of All follower's of The Way all who have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior are Christian and part of the Church and as such are brothers and Sisters in Christ.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    bold emphasis mine.

    We do not need the worldly CRT to tell us how to be right with God and our fellow Christians. The Bible is all we need to tell us how. That of Christ living the perfect life, dying for our sins and the free gift we have to become right with God which is what brings us together.
    Last edited by RumTumTugger; 02-12-2020 at 06:17 PM.

  7. Amen MaxVel amen'd this post.
  8. #166
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    It seems to me that simplicio is viewing the SBC's meetings, Resolutions etc through a very Catholic lens. Thus his apparent inability to grasp that they are not binding, authoritative, equivalent to Scripture, etc.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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  10. #167
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    It seems to me that simplicio is viewing the SBC's meetings, Resolutions etc through a very Catholic lens. Thus his apparent inability to grasp that they are not binding, authoritative, equivalent to Scripture, etc.
    Yeah, cause one of the things Southern Baptists like to brag about is "we don't have a POPE!"
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  11. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    It seems to me that simplicio is viewing the SBC's meetings, Resolutions etc through a very Catholic lens. Thus his apparent inability to grasp that they are not binding, authoritative, equivalent to Scripture, etc.
    A Catholic lens, yes. But also a biblical lens. I do believe that there are pronouncements of extreme import between the authoritative ex Cathedra and the random musings of a, individual. There are differing views on ecclesiology, and how Christians interact collectively in society.

    The Baptists have firm beliefs about the church operating at the local level as the tangible institution, but at the other end of operating across the nation or world, the understandings rely on the concept of the invisible and mystical body of Christ, without any organic and tangible component. In between those two extremes is the SBC annual meeting, a convention in which resolutions are offered to the world. It is definitely not the equivalent of navel gazing as CP alleges, nor is the attendance of the meeting only for self fulfillment of and for individual.

    The Catholic Church has a plethora of non binding, non authoritative statements, but that does not mean the message can be ignored and contradicted. One question I asked, and Protestants here ducked is if they are willing to make a stand and declare any of the resolutions on race as mere musings of men, and not reflecting the will of the Creator. Silence spoke volumes.

    Letter from a Birminham Jail is non binding, but any any document wriiten in opposition to it is not likely to be called good; King's Letter was written in response to a statement criticizing Kings actions Kings lettter is read today, not the letter signed by other Christians. If one argues against King, we question if it is a Christian soul making the objections. The resolutions (if anyone bothers to read them) are also non binding, but at some point if one argues against them (i.e.what they actually say and not the bizarre ramblings of those who have not read them), the question is raised if it is the soul of a Baptist Christian making the objection.

    What constitutes the teaching authority? I argue that whenever two or more gather....

    How does the church operate collectively, ecumenically in society's stage? We have the national March for Life, an annual staged event, orchestrated and planned, an ecumenical polyglot of denominations, which is entirely consistent with the Catholic understanding of ecclesiology and Christian action. But is it really consistent with Baptist ecclesiology, and if so, why? No am NOT arguing against the pro life march, but the point is that any argument for the public and collective march for life is an argument against the view of CP.

  12. #169
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Does Galatians three account for the divergent views of black and white Christians?
    Amazing Anachronism, Batman!!!

    Of course Galatians three doesn't consider the views of 'white' and 'black' Christians. They didn't exist then, and they weren't the author's intended audience. He also 'failed' to account for hate speech, slut shaming, body identity issues, social media bullying, and much more.

    For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

    God should really have got someone better informed to write to the churches in Galatia.



    However, the Bible does give us all sorts of general principles which can apply to many different situations, and some specific advice as well. Stick to that.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  13. Amen RumTumTugger, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  14. #170
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    A Catholic lens, yes. But also a biblical lens.
    Yet, oddly, you prefer anything but discussing the Bible on this topic.


    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    I do believe that there are pronouncements of extreme import between the authoritative ex Cathedra and the random musings of a, individual. There are differing views on ecclesiology, and how Christians interact collectively in society.

    The Baptists have firm beliefs about the church operating at the local level as the tangible institution, but at the other end of operating across the nation or world, the understandings rely on the concept of the invisible and mystical body of Christ, without any organic and tangible component. In between those two extremes is the SBC annual meeting, a convention in which resolutions are offered to the world. It is definitely not the equivalent of navel gazing as CP alleges, nor is the attendance of the meeting only for self fulfillment of and for individual.
    I'm going to go with what CP says about the SBC, as he has way more experience, inside knowledge and close up observation of it and how it operates than you. You can't even(despite being corrected) get simple terminology right.
    If you and CP disagree over what the SBC believes, or how it operates in practice, it would be very foolish to go with you over him. You're just mashing a 'Catholic' view of how the church operates onto an organisation that isn't Catholic. That's just silly.


    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    The Catholic Church has a plethora of non binding, non authoritative statements, but that does not mean the message can be ignored and contradicted. One question I asked, and Protestants here ducked is if they are willing to make a stand and declare any of the resolutions on race as mere musings of men, and not reflecting the will of the Creator. Silence spoke volumes.
    Uh, no. Silence could mean no-one understood your question in the midst of your confuddled* walls of text; or that no-one cared enough to answer you; or that your question was a poor one; or that your question was not perceived to be honestly asked; or...

    Silence doesn't necessarily mean 'I can't answer you' - you have to demonstrate that.


    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    Letter from a Birminham Jail is non binding, but any any document wriiten in opposition to it is not likely to be called good; King's Letter was written in response to a statement criticizing Kings actions Kings lettter is read today, not the letter signed by other Christians. If one argues against King, we question if it is a Christian soul making the objections. The resolutions (if anyone bothers to read them) are also non binding, but at some point if one argues against them (i.e.what they actually say and not the bizarre ramblings of those who have not read them), the question is raised if it is the soul of a Baptist Christian making the objection.

    By who? You? Why should we care?


    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    What constitutes the teaching authority? I argue that whenever two or more gather....
    Referring to Matthew 18 v 20 ??

    You haven't argued anything about it. Secondly, I don't think you've applied it correctly either. Thirdly, the implication of your position is that whatever 'two or more' Christians decide and declare is binding on all Christians everywhere; i.e. nonsense. Fourthly, I have serious reservations over the Catholic (your?) understanding of church authority and teaching authority.



    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    How does the church operate collectively, ecumenically in society's stage? We have the national March for Life, an annual staged event, orchestrated and planned, an ecumenical polyglot of denominations, which is entirely consistent with the Catholic understanding of ecclesiology and Christian action. But is it really consistent with Baptist ecclesiology, and if so, why? No am NOT arguing against the pro life march, but the point is that any argument for the public and collective march for life is an argument against the view of CP.

    Complete non sequitur. I don't think you know what CP's view is on whatever it is you're on about.

    Prove it by concisely (in two or three sentences, at most) summarizing CP's view.

    Example: "CP's view on this is that cows are one of the highest and most honourable forms of life, apart from humans, with the exception only of dogs, which are as near to angelic beings one can get without actually being an angel."


    * Yes, that's a (deliberate) neologism. Meaning: confused and confusing
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  15. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.

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