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Thread: Is there a Christian alternative to critical race theory?

  1. #191
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    ....as an alternative to CRT, the very first response in the thread. And several have responded about the gospel, the Bible, etc, as the alternative to CRT that should be used.
    'an alternative' is YOUR interpretation, not THEIR words. I understand them to be presenting what they think the basis of any Christian approach to race relations should be. No-one except you, to the best of my knowledge, has presented anything as an analytical tool for understanding race relations. The supposed conflict between Galatians and CRT as an analytical tool is entirely of your making. You're fighting a self-constructed strawman that no-one else here even thinks exists. Waste of time.





    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    Which is a religious analog to Rodney King's "why can't we all get along?" which can be traced back to police swinging batons while King was on the ground.

    That's insulting, and insane. A Christian who says 'We should base our approach to race relations firstly on Biblical passages like Galatians 3' is somehow equivalent to arguing that King deserved what he got? You're completely loopy.






    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio
    I wonder how many Christians argued that King deserved what he got? And if there was a difference in outlook between white and black Christians.



    And who decides if that worldview is actually built on some biblical worldview? White Christians? Black Christians? Note the well documented sharp divide in outlook between the two groups. Ferguson was sparked by what happened to one man. I wonder how many Christians argued he got what he deserved? And if there was a difference between white and black Christians.

    If Christianity is just some pie in the sky, and useful at political meetings, then yes, the Bible is all that is needed. But the Bible has been around a while, and so have social evils, and the lion will lay down with the lamb. Not sure the standard formula of attributing social evils to a lack of piety is at all useful, when Christians cannot even decide just what the racial problem is.




    Who is the arbiter of when a verse is ripped out of context. Each significant difference between Protestant denominations is predicated on someone ripping a verse out of context!



    Amen to that. And that statement just happens to coincide with the notorious resolution9. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you've read it, as have all the other posters read it. But it just seems like you haven't read it, because you keep bringing issues which are irrelevant.

    I do not think it a coincidence that the resolution also includes intersectionality. Just as the church is unable to diagnose a problem on race, it was unable to diagnose a problem with abuse, all the while claiming they were being good bible Christians. Nothing wrong with the bible, just the way it is used: No sole scriptura Christian has been able to discuss the difference in outlook between black and white Christians!

    More of your usual thinly disguised disdain for anyone who isn't a Catholic; more unsupported (and unsupportable) wild generalised opinions presented as facts, more exaltation of purely secular approaches over anything Bible-based.

    Worthless pap that doesn't even rise to the level of a sincere discussion. See ya.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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  3. #192
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    But if that is true, why is the backlash against CRT based on woo, not any realistic assessment of what CRT is and does, can and can't accomplish?

    Yes, marxists had a hand in formulating CRT as a fleshed out theory, yet one of the greatest pastors of the 20th century is considered a proto-CRT proponent! MLK used the categories and methods of CRT before it was even formulated, even curiously articulating the ideas using the same terms.

    If any poster here has even a basic understanding of CRT, they have managed to hide it. The primary objection against it seems to be summed up in its source: non Christians and even antichristians who formulated as a theory within the social sciences. But the one basic observation common to its proponents is that the current state of the church in America is unable to even recognize there is a problem.

    The church too movement reveals there is a problem, while many within the church search for ways to discount that problem. Many Baptists stormed the hierarchy of the SBC demanding change, a grass root challenge to a grass roots denomination! The divide between men and women was obvious, division was sown by whom exactly? The controversies over Ferguson and Trayvon Martin suggest that there is a problem with race in America, but Christians are able to dispute the problem by dealing with each episode in isolation, Trayvon Martin was a sinner......

    The old adages about the Bible's sufficiency are not working, and are isolating the church in the public square. <= how much do you want to bet that any evangelical (who has extensive practice or training in hermenutics will even be able to identify the subject of that sentence?
    Please tell us what Critical Race Theory is, o great Simplicio.

    I am the one who accused YOU of not knowing what it is, and rather than showing that you do, now you are running around accusing US of not knowing. This is a typical troll tactic. So

    Please, in your own words, not copying from some website, tell us what CRT is.


  4. #193
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Please tell us what Critical Race Theory is, o great Simplicio.

    I am the one who accused YOU of not knowing what it is, and rather than showing that you do, now you are running around accusing US of not knowing. This is a typical troll tactic. So

    Please, in your own words, not copying from some website, tell us what CRT is.

    Hey Sparko.

    I don't know and I don't care
    Would you please your bacon share?

    CP
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  5. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Please tell us what Critical Race Theory is, o great Simplicio.

    I am the one who accused YOU of not knowing what it is, and rather than showing that you do, now you are running around accusing US of not knowing. This is a typical troll tactic. So

    Please, in your own words, not copying from some website, tell us what CRT is.

    CRT is an alternative to the color blind theory of race, which posits that there are structural and institutionalized elements in society which hamper resolution of race problems. It is not some Marxist theory, it is rooted in the very real difference of experience of black American and white Americans both today and throughout history.

    Yes, its primary authors who fleshed out the theory are non Christians and it is antichristian as it is formulated as a philosophical tool. But MLK was a Christian who pointed to the ideas of CRT, even though CRT had not been developed into a any complete theory. But unless MLK is the soul fitted for destruction, then your bamboozlement is absurd.

    Does it present a clear and unambiguous program of some magical bullet to end racism? No it does not. But what solutions does the bible offer? the perfection of piety, according to Christians here.

    CRT does (1) provide a sharp and definite signal that there is a race problem (2) point to certain things in society which perpetuate racism. But it is a theory within the social sciences, so it does not yield the precision of a mathematical theorem. There is not some special calculus for social evils (note the OP "Burdensome Christianity", then search for the response)

    And one point I haven't really addressed (one idea at a time) is its relationship to intersectionality. Both CRT and Intersectionality subvert the common Christian assertion that there is no problem. The combined differences between black and white Christians, the combined differences in outlook between men and women, make denial of the existence of a problem impossible to deny, unlike the color blind alternative often proposed by Christians, the gender ideas of Christianity.

    The color blind theory does not yield any hard and sharp points to start from, its main use by Christians is the sweeping issues under the rug.

    Each of these points have been brought up here, so it is not like I have applied them.

    But hey, whay was the response to the OP "Burdensome Christianity"? And what was the response of the pious on the civics page on EACH AND EVERY THTREAD dealing with racism? (not us, its the dems)

  6. #195
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    CRT is an alternative to the color blind theory of race, which posits that there are structural and institutionalized elements in society which hamper resolution of race problems. It is not some Marxist theory, it is rooted in the very real difference of experience of black American and white Americans both today and throughout history.
    So the bible which espouses a color-blind acceptance of all races as equal under Christ, would be an ALTERNATIVE to CRT then, eh?

    And yes, CRT is Marxist. It is an extension of Critical Theory.
    In sociology and political philosophy, the term "Critical Theory" describes the Western Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory



    Yes, its primary authors who fleshed out the theory are non Christians and it is antichristian as it is formulated as a philosophical tool. But MLK was a Christian who pointed to the ideas of CRT, even though CRT had not been developed into a any complete theory. But unless MLK is the soul fitted for destruction, then your bamboozlement is absurd.
    What ARE those ideas of CRT, Simplicio? Elucidate us.

    Does it present a clear and unambiguous program of some magical bullet to end racism? No it does not. But what solutions does the bible offer? the perfection of piety, according to Christians here.
    It doesn't end racism at all. In fact, it's goal is to show that institutional racism is rampant in society and to blame white people for everything. "White Privilege" is a CRT "idea"


    CRT does (1) provide a sharp and definite signal that there is a race problem (2) point to certain things in society which perpetuate racism. But it is a theory within the social sciences, so it does not yield the precision of a mathematical theorem. There is not some special calculus for social evils (note the OP "Burdensome Christianity", then search for the response)
    Its only purpose is to divide society and pass blame around. It tries to create social classes instead of trying to solve racism and unite people.

    And one point I haven't really addressed (one idea at a time) is its relationship to intersectionality. Both CRT and Intersectionality subvert the common Christian assertion that there is no problem. The combined differences between black and white Christians, the combined differences in outlook between men and women, make denial of the existence of a problem impossible to deny, unlike the color blind alternative often proposed by Christians, the gender ideas of Christianity.
    Again, you acknowledge that Christianity does teach an alternative to CRT, while you were just arguing above with maxvel that it isn't.

    The color blind theory does not yield any hard and sharp points to start from, its main use by Christians is the sweeping issues under the rug.
    No. Christianity is claiming the world IS color-blind, but that it SHOULD be. And we should be working towards it by treating all races as equal.

    Each of these points have been brought up here, so it is not like I have applied them.

    But hey, whay was the response to the OP "Burdensome Christianity"? And what was the response of the pious on the civics page on EACH AND EVERY THTREAD dealing with racism? (not us, its the dems)
    Your anger seems to be getting the better of you. Your spelling is falling apart.

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  8. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So the bible which espouses a color-blind acceptance of all races as equal under Christ, would be an ALTERNATIVE to CRT then, eh?

    And yes, CRT is Marxist. It is an extension of Critical Theory.
    In sociology and political philosophy, the term "Critical Theory" describes the Western Marxist philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory





    What ARE those ideas of CRT, Simplicio? Elucidate us.


    It doesn't end racism at all. In fact, it's goal is to show that institutional racism is rampant in society and to blame white people for everything. "White Privilege" is a CRT "idea"


    Its only purpose is to divide society and pass blame around. It tries to create social classes instead of trying to solve racism and unite people.


    Again, you acknowledge that Christianity does teach an alternative to CRT, while you were just arguing above with maxvel that it isn't.

    No. Christianity is claiming the world IS color-blind, but that it SHOULD be. And we should be working towards it by treating all races as equal.



    Your anger seems to be getting the better of you. Your spelling is falling apart.
    I also hold that the color blind theories have been shown to be impotent, and at root antichristian in nature in that they bear responsibility for social evil. Men have not been able to fashion the color blindness of the bible into any real and useful theory which points to a problem which can be addressed (other than they assertion that "they" are not pious enough)

    I was in in a hurry before I posted and did not make necessary corrections. Unfortunately that is my standard and usual typing. But you apparently could not decipher the spelling enough to be able to actually answer it, so I will repeat it here:

    Why was the response to "Burdensome Christianity" one of diversion? (hint, that was prompted by posts on civics and does represent an alternative to CRT)

    Several threads on civics dealt with racism, and the overwhelming response by (quite a few) Christians was effectively denial. Is there anything which can be condemned using the color blind theories espoused here?

    You seem to know all about CRT, and nothing I say would make a difference?

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I also hold that the color blind theories have been shown to be impotent, and at root antichristian in nature in that they bear responsibility for social evil. Men have not been able to fashion the color blindness of the bible into any real and useful theory which points to a problem which can be addressed (other than they assertion that "they" are not pious enough)
    What theory is needed? Treat your neighbor well and as an equal, no matter what sex or race they are.

    I was in in a hurry before I posted and did not make necessary corrections. Unfortunately that is my standard and usual typing. But you apparently could not decipher the spelling enough to be able to actually answer it, so I will repeat it here:

    Why was the response to "Burdensome Christianity" one of diversion? (hint, that was prompted by posts on civics and does represent an alternative to CRT)

    what does some other thread have to do with this one? My response, for the record, was, "They are admirable goals we should all strive for. I don't think we always succeed though. But we are still forgiven."

    Several threads on civics dealt with racism, and the overwhelming response by (quite a few) Christians was effectively denial. Is there anything which can be condemned using the color blind theories espoused here?

    You seem to know all about CRT, and nothing I say would make a difference?
    You seem to just keep picking fights and no answer is good enough for you. Because you don't even bother trying to understand the other person, you just make up some sort of straw man version of them in your own mind, then keep trying to burn it down.

    You are either a young kid, out for blood, or some crotchety old man who never leaves the house and screams from his porch at kids playing on his lawn. I am leaning toward the latter.

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  11. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    What theory is needed? Treat your neighbor well and as an equal, no matter what sex or race they are.


    what does some other thread have to do with this one? My response, for the record, was, "They are admirable goals we should all strive for. I don't think we always succeed though. But we are still forgiven."



    You seem to just keep picking fights and no answer is good enough for you. Because you don't even bother trying to understand the other person, you just make up some sort of straw man version of them in your own mind, then keep trying to burn it down.

    You are either a young kid, out for blood, or some crotchety old man who never leaves the house and screams from his porch at kids playing on his lawn. I am leaning toward the latter.
    And you actually think that you are trying to understand opposing views?

    The irony is that your proposal does not meet the supposed criteria you and other have demanded of CRT!

    1.) on the threads dealing with racism on civics, I think the only things you condemned as racist are Dems, libs, and AOC. It took a while before you could concede that milk could be used in racist ways by racists, yet you did post "funny" memes which looked remarkably similar to racist humor. Noseberg shekelstein is a darned good example, nothing in that would suggest to you anything racist.

    CRT suggests that white Christians will be oblivious to the things which black Christians (and by extension, Jews) would instinctively recognize as racist. the biblically based view you espouse leads to the question of which Christian is not really biblical. And that question is typically resolved how?

    2.) the ideas I brought up in burdensome Christianity are not something which can be read once then set aside, those things become a form of check, with at least someone in the community of believers keeping it in mind, the ideas forming a continual assessment and reassessment. A view which forms the basis of my view towards the SBC resolutions, which coincidentally comes from a Baptist. Imagine that, the SBC has members who do not think like CP!

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    And you actually think that you are trying to understand opposing views?

    The irony is that your proposal does not meet the supposed criteria you and other have demanded of CRT!

    1.) on the threads dealing with racism on civics, I think the only things you condemned as racist are Dems, libs, and AOC. It took a while before you could concede that milk could be used in racist ways by racists, yet you did post "funny" memes which looked remarkably similar to racist humor. Noseberg shekelstein is a darned good example, nothing in that would suggest to you anything racist.

    CRT suggests that white Christians will be oblivious to the things which black Christians (and by extension, Jews) would instinctively recognize as racist. the biblically based view you espouse leads to the question of which Christian is not really biblical. And that question is typically resolved how?

    2.) the ideas I brought up in burdensome Christianity are not something which can be read once then set aside, those things become a form of check, with at least someone in the community of believers keeping it in mind, the ideas forming a continual assessment and reassessment. A view which forms the basis of my view towards the SBC resolutions, which coincidentally comes from a Baptist. Imagine that, the SBC has members who do not think like CP!
    I am seriously wondering if you are (or should be) under psychiatric treatment, Simplicio. You don't read what people say, you jump all over the place, expecting people to read your mind and get angry when they don't follow your tangled train of thought. When you do respond, you pretty much ignore everything they actually say and pretend they said something else so you can argue against it. It's insane.

    I will leave you to your fantasies/delusions. You don't really need me here to have a debate with me. You are doing so well arguing with straw man Sparko.

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  14. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    'an alternative' is YOUR interpretation, not THEIR words. I understand them to be presenting what they think the basis of any Christian approach to race relations should be. No-one except you, to the best of my knowledge, has presented anything as an analytical tool for understanding race relations. The supposed conflict between Galatians and CRT as an analytical tool is entirely of your making. You're fighting a self-constructed strawman that no-one else here even thinks exists. Waste of time.








    That's insulting, and insane. A Christian who says 'We should base our approach to race relations firstly on Biblical passages like Galatians 3' is somehow equivalent to arguing that King deserved what he got? You're completely loopy.









    More of your usual thinly disguised disdain for anyone who isn't a Catholic; more unsupported (and unsupportable) wild generalised opinions presented as facts, more exaltation of purely secular approaches over anything Bible-based.

    Worthless pap that doesn't even rise to the level of a sincere discussion. See ya.
    Makes sense to me! A section of my post which contains eight solid points to discuss is dismissed as antiprotestant chauvinism. The two points which specifically refer to Protestants (other than the Anglo Catholic CS Lewis) asks about the application of "ripping verses out of context" to denominationalism, since each difference is backed by differnt biblical interpretation, and whether any sola scriptura Christian (a reference to those who argue that the bible offers an alternative to the social theory) has spoken to my diffence in outlook between black and white Christians, because on civics page, the difference is attributed to those seeing pervasive racism as those with the moral failing of racism.

    The first is the intractable problem of denominationalism, each side accuses the other guy of ripping the verses in question out of context, the second is easily verifiable here, especially since I have asked it countless times and no one has seen it fitting to address.

    As to the first point, maybe I'll ask Sparko, because he has frequently returned to that as an example as an alternative.

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