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  • "Conservative churches adopt policies and teachings that promote the abuse of women."

    "But men who attend church regularly are the least likely to be abusive."

    "Oh yeah? Well, that's DESPITE the policies and teachings of conservative churches!"

    I know a begged question when I see one.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      OK. But aren't those dedicated members the ones who make the policies? Usually the most dedicated members are chosen to lead the congregation as deacons and such. Even if not, if I were in a church that I was involved in and it had policies that I thought were abusive to women, I would fight against them and get them changed.
      Here is one reference to the sort of thing I'm talking about. This sort of thing is not at all uncommon. And just look at how she references her own thinking about these issues even just a short time ago. Despite the protests seen on this site, the sort of thinking she outlines in the opening paragraph is pervasive in Conservative Evangelical circles.

      https://www.cbeinternational.org/res...nd-abuse-women

      Source: above

      We received a phone call last night from our 19-year-old daughter, married to a 22-year-old Christian man. She called to tell us that he has been abusing the physically since almost the first week of their marriage. Because the Lord had opened our minds to some of the misconceptions and false teachings which are prevalent in our evangelical churches on the subject, we had the presence of mind to say, ‘Pack your bags, we’re coming to get you.’ I guess I am so concerned and even frightened for the church, because a very short, few weeks or months ago, my own response to this situation might well have been the widely accepted view of the wife submitting under any and all circumstances. I shudder to think of the results for our daughter if this had actually been the case.

      In my position (as a social worker) I deal with battered wives and children as well as abusive husbands and fathers. Many of my clients are Christians. One of my cases involved a soft-spoken woman, wife and mother of two small children who has very recently separated from a man who regularly and viciously beat her and her child. She remained in the relationship largely because her pastor and many people in the congregation strongly advised her to forgive him, remain with him, and pray. Unfortunately, this woman’s family, also Christians, strongly beseeched her to stay and preserve her marriage. For her, leaving her husband meant going against the advice of the only family and friends she knew.

      © Copyright Original Source

      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Hmm - the 'policies' I'm talking about are the Partriarchal system of government and husband wife interaction that is derived from a very literal reading of Paul's teachings on these issues. I thought you understood that? So its a bit more insidious, a bit trickier to nail down. Churches interpret those things differently, some siding more regressively, perhaps drawing on teachings like those of Piper and Grudem, others less so like the church I currently attend which extends leadership positions to women up to and including head elder (but I don't think pastor at this point - not sure)

        Now some churches are nutcasey about it. Tracy mentions some of those sorts of teachings. But other situations - like the one simplicio mentioned with paige patterson being indifferent to the wife of a husband with two black eyes telling her he's just happy the man is saved - more or less happen behind closed doors and you'd not know about them unless the wife of the abusive husband 'outed' the pastor or the elders, or an elder that understands the problem got wind of it and made a stink (both of which happen which is why we know about these cases). Understanding this is not easy - she's an abused wife. The pastor is protecting the husband. She talks about it she better have a place to hide (from the husband), and that likely will not be sanctioned by the pastor that is taking the husbands side. She's really sorta on her own then. Her friends are in the church, they are other husband's wives taught to submit to their husbands and church authority as well.

        It's not nearly as uncommon as you might think. There are cases like this from SBC, Presbyterian USA, numerous fundamentalist branches and Pentacostals. It's not a trivial thing and it's not a small thing.

        But the common 'wind' that tends to push congregations into this sort of thing is that underlying patriarchical teaching of female submission and covering that must be explicitly countered with words like 'submit yourselves one to another' not to take negative effect.
        "Sorta on her own"? You hinted at, but fell short of explicitly stating an important detail: the women will often need to find another church to worship after "outing" a pastor or Christian in an leadership position.

        Violation of the cultural norms, even if it involves in rejection of pedophilia within the church, or approaches to abuse, often results in shunning the whistle blower.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Here is one reference to the sort of thing I'm talking about. This sort of thing is not at all uncommon. And just look at how she references her own thinking about these issues even just a short time ago. Despite the protests seen on this site, the sort of thinking she outlines in the opening paragraph is pervasive in Conservative Evangelical circles.

          https://www.cbeinternational.org/res...nd-abuse-women

          Source: above

          We received a phone call last night from our 19-year-old daughter, married to a 22-year-old Christian man. She called to tell us that he has been abusing the physically since almost the first week of their marriage. Because the Lord had opened our minds to some of the misconceptions and false teachings which are prevalent in our evangelical churches on the subject, we had the presence of mind to say, ‘Pack your bags, we’re coming to get you.’ I guess I am so concerned and even frightened for the church, because a very short, few weeks or months ago, my own response to this situation might well have been the widely accepted view of the wife submitting under any and all circumstances. I shudder to think of the results for our daughter if this had actually been the case.

          In my position (as a social worker) I deal with battered wives and children as well as abusive husbands and fathers. Many of my clients are Christians. One of my cases involved a soft-spoken woman, wife and mother of two small children who has very recently separated from a man who regularly and viciously beat her and her child. She remained in the relationship largely because her pastor and many people in the congregation strongly advised her to forgive him, remain with him, and pray. Unfortunately, this woman’s family, also Christians, strongly beseeched her to stay and preserve her marriage. For her, leaving her husband meant going against the advice of the only family and friends she knew.

          © Copyright Original Source

          You say this is "pervasive" in conservative churches, and I'm sure you could come up with anecdotes all day, yet studies from an essay that you referenced show that people who regularly attend conservative churches do NOT exemplify these sorts of attitudes and beliefs, and the several posters you've interacted with throughout this thread do not believe it themselves and have never witnessed anybody who exemplifies this attitude even though we've attended conservative churches all our lives which is why we're skeptical of your claim that abuse of women is encouraged at "many conservative churches".

          If a friend or relative ever called me and said her husband was abusing her, I would not hesitate for a second to tell her to get out and to do whatever I could to help her. In fact, I think it is morally right for a woman to divorce an abusive husband because I believe that Jesus' reference to "marital unfaithfulness" meant more than just adultery, and I can tell you for a fact that I developed thrse ideas because of and not in spite of the teachings of conservative churches.

          So we're naturally wondering where these "many conservative churches" you refer to are hiding such that the experience of several tWeb members and studies referenced by an essay you linked to does not support your claims. Do SOME Christian churches espouse these ideas? Probably. Do MANY conservative churches espouse them? Probably not.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            You say this is "pervasive" in conservative churches, and I'm sure you could come up with anecdotes all day, yet studies from an essay that you referenced show that people who regularly attend conservative churches do NOT exemplify these sorts of attitudes and beliefs, and the several posters you've interacted with throughout this thread do not believe it themselves and have never witnessed anybody who exemplifies this attitude even though we've attended conservative churches all our lives which is why we're skeptical of your claim that abuse of women is encouraged at "many conservative churches".

            If a friend or relative ever called me and said her husband was abusing her, I would not hesitate for a second to tell her to get out and to do whatever I could to help her. In fact, I think it is morally right for a woman to divorce an abusive husband because I believe that Jesus' reference to "marital unfaithfulness" meant more than just adultery, and I can tell you for a fact that I developed thrse ideas because of and not in spite of the teachings of conservative churches.

            So we're naturally wondering where these "many conservative churches" you refer to are hiding such that the experience of several tWeb members and studies referenced by an essay you linked to does not support your claims. Do SOME Christian churches espouse these ideas? Probably. Do MANY conservative churches espouse them? Probably not.
            I’ve known abused women and have helped a few out and conservative pastors are among those saying to get away. Even had one that that made it clear that he wouldn’t keep abuse secret and would contact the police if told, by a women, that she was being abused. What do we know though? We disagree with the great Jim, so who should we believe? Our lying eyes and ears or the supreme moral arbitrator, Jim?
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              "Sorta on her own"? You hinted at, but fell short of explicitly stating an important detail: the women will often need to find another church to worship after "outing" a pastor or Christian in an leadership position.

              Violation of the cultural norms, even if it involves in rejection of pedophilia within the church, or approaches to abuse, often results in shunning the whistle blower.
              Actually, believe it or not. The last SBC church I was at ended up right there, in intern was off the rails in abusive practices in the youth group and the pastors handled it very, very poorly, at first refusing to believe those telling them what was going on, then trying to sweep it under the rug.

              Not incidentally, they were big on piper too.
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-08-2020, 09:48 AM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Actually, believe it or not. The last SBC church I was at ended up right there, in intern was off the rails in abusive practices in the youth group and the pastors handled it very, very poorly, at first refusing to believe those telling them what was going on, then trying to sweep it under the rug.
                I've been trying to deduce what religious background was.

                Most troubling is the pattern of poor responses by churches, even after the scandalously poor response by the Catholic Church. Even with the model of what not to do when confronted with a problem, churches did not have a plan or thought to follow any plan.

                Few churches are forthright in discussing it after the fact. One church was in Virginia (I think, it was so long ago and I did try to find the article again, but could not) did discuss what they did wrong (they passed on a predator child abuser to the next church) and the thought processes involved.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  I’ve known abused women and have helped a few out and conservative pastors are among those saying to get away. Even had one that that made it clear that he wouldn’t keep abuse secret and would contact the police if told, by a women, that she was being abused. What do we know though? We disagree with the great Jim, so who should we believe? Our lying eyes and ears or the supreme moral arbitrator, Jim?
                  One pastor I know, if he heard about something like this, would immediately get together a group of the strongest men in the church to go over and protect the woman while she packed and escort her to a place of safety.
                  Last edited by Mountain Man; 02-08-2020, 10:43 AM.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    One pastor I know, if he heard about something like this, would immediately get together a group of the strongest men in the church to go over and protect the woman while she packed and escort her to a place of safety.
                    I've heard about that taking place several times with at least one case where one of those accompanying the pastor being a deputy sheriff who was forced to arrest the soon to be ex-husband when he started threatening them.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I've heard about that taking place several times with at least one case where one of those accompanying the pastor being a deputy sheriff who was forced to arrest the soon to be ex-husband when he started threatening them.
                      On the one hand, we have the stories of all the heroic individual Christians, on the other hand we have the image of women demanding change within the Christian world, and getting blowback!

                      Where were all the heroic individuals and churches when it came to addressing it at some macro level? The women rallied, calling it "prevalence of abuse and enablement of abuse", such that the church needed to reform its culture.

                      https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/se...-women-n880216

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        On the one hand, we have the stories of all the heroic individual Christians, on the other hand we have the image of women demanding change within the Christian world, and getting blowback!

                        Where were all the heroic individuals and churches when it came to addressing it at some macro level? The women rallied, calling it "prevalence of abuse and enablement of abuse", such that the church needed to reform its culture.

                        https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/se...-women-n880216
                        What mm and rogue are talking about is, in fact, a bit rare. In fact the only time I've ever heard something similar actually implemented was a paster friend talking about what their community (not sure if that was synonymous with church) used to do growing up in the mountains of NC when a man was abusing his wife, only I don't think what they did technically was legal and would not be possible in these times.

                        Definitions of abuse would have been a bit different then too.
                        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-08-2020, 11:13 AM.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          What mm and rogue are talking about is, in fact, a bit rare. In fact the only time I've ever heard something similar actually implemented was a paster friend talking about what they used to do growing up in the mountains of NC when a man was abusing his wife, only I don't think what they did technically was legal and would not be possible in these times.
                          Indeed it's a "bit rare" since thankfully most split-ups don't require such extraordinary measures.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Indeed it's a "bit rare" since thankfully most split-ups don't require such extraordinary measures.
                            Interesting interpretation of my post. The rarity I was talking about the overall attitude and willingness to deal with the problem in that fashion, not the frequency with which such measures would be required.
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-08-2020, 12:13 PM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              What mm and rogue are talking about is, in fact, a bit rare.
                              Not in my experience. And apparently not according to the author of the essay you cited. You still haven't been able to account for the disconnect between "Conservative churches promote attitudes and policies that encourage the abuse of women" and "Those who regularly attend conservative churches are the least likely to be abusive because of regular exposure to balanced teaching".
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                                Not in my experience. And apparently not according to the author of the essay you cited. You still haven't been able to account for the disconnect between "Conservative churches promote attitudes and policies that encourage the abuse of women" and "Those who regularly attend conservative churches are the least likely to be abusive because of regular exposure to balanced teaching".
                                The seeming paradox is similar to the points made by rogue and you about the churches policing and dealing with abuse, which takes on a different light with the phenomenon of women thinking that the culture of the church needing to change. Two conflicting narratives, but if only viewed through an either/or dichotomy one is left with the need to dismiss one as false and inaccurate.

                                But the dichotomous lens is not the only way to look at it. Christianity derives its power (as a systematic theology, yes, the power is attributed to the divine godhead) through the resolution of paradox by keeping both seeming contradictions.

                                If you are right then the women are wrong, the culture within the church does not need to change, and Paige Patterson remains a model for pastors to emulate.

                                Comment

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