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Thread: RIP #MeToo

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I do appreciate how you've gone from "conservative churches encourage abuse" "many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage [abuse]" to "nominal church goers are more likely to be abusive" "nominal attendees of Conservative Churches have the HIGHEST abuse rates" which is a completely different issue. That's like blaming schools when truant students get bad grades.
    No, they are not, and I haven't gone from one to the other. They are, in fact not mutually exclusive statements and stand as they are simultaneously correct.

    The second is, in fact, the consequence of the first.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  2. #132
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    No, they are not, and I haven't gone from one to the other. They are, in fact not mutually exclusive statements and stand as they are simultaneously correct.

    The second is, in fact, the consequence of the first.
    No it isnít, but have you tried tapping your heels together three times while repeating that? Maybe that might make it true!
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  3. #133
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    No it isnít, but have you tried tapping your heels together three times while repeating that? Maybe that might make it true!
    I'm trying to figure out how it's the fault of the church when a nominal attendee doesn't receive the same, balanced teaching as a regular attendee.

    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #134
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I'm trying to figure out how it's the fault of the church when a nominal attendee doesn't receive the same, balanced teaching as a regular attendee.

    Wow - that's the simple part. It's been explained a bunch of times too. That is what the underlying patriarchal culture does unless the teaching that mitigates its effect is not merely taught but emphasized. It's like giving someone a powerful blue laser but not telling them about the dangers of looking a laser light without protective goggles. As long as you use the goggles, everything is fine. But without them, you can go blind. And you'd better make sure everyone you invite for a demo has them too.

    It's there in the stats MM. Nominal Conservative Church Goers have the highest abuse rates. They get (or got in the past) the patriarchal culture, but they don't get the required emphasis on the teaching that mitigates its effect.

    How can conservative churches avoid that consequence? Move away from the strong patriarchal emphasis. Allow women a place - adopt a more egalitarian approach.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  5. #135
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Wow - that's the simple part. It's been explained a bunch of times too. That is what the underlying patriarchal culture does unless the teaching that mitigates its effect is not merely taught but emphasized. It's like giving someone a powerful blue laser but not telling them about the dangers of looking a laser light without protective goggles. As long as you use the goggles, everything is fine. But without them, you can go blind. And you'd better make sure everyone you invite for a demo has them too.

    It's there in the stats MM. Nominal Conservative Church Goers have the highest abuse rates. They get (or got in the past) the patriarchal culture, but they don't get the required emphasis on the teaching that mitigates its effect.

    How can conservative churches avoid that consequence? Move away from the strong patriarchal emphasis. Allow women a place - adopt a more egalitarian approach.
    Thatís some twisting you have to produce, to invent that insanity.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  6. #136
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    That is what the underlying patriarchal culture does unless the teaching that mitigates its effect is not merely taught but emphasized.
    But according to the essay you cited, conservative churches do emphasize teachings that make abuse less likely, and those men who attend church regularly seem to benefit from this emphasis. That nominal attendees do not receive the same benefit is not the fault of the church. May as well blame the fitness club because the guy who works out only a few times a year is out of shape.

    We're just going in circles now. I think it's time for me to step out again.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. #137
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    But according to the essay you cited, conservative churches do emphasize teachings that make abuse less likely, and those men who attend church regularly seem to benefit from this emphasis. That nominal attendees do not receive the same benefit is not the fault of the church. May as well blame the fitness club because the guy who works out only a few times a year is out of shape.

    We're just going in circles now. I think it's time for me to step out again.
    The fault lies with the underlying culture. Your fitness example isn't an analogue because there there is not something that is a part of the gym itself that is working to keep him unfit and that can only be countered by actually going to the gym often enough to counter the element of the gym itself that is causing him to lose fitness.

    A better example would be a gym where everybody at the gym gets together for big parties where everyone overeats, but the ones that come regularly to both the gym and the parties burn enough calories to stay in shape, but the ones that go to the parties but only work out sometimes get fatter than the people that dont go to the gym at all.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-06-2020 at 08:23 PM.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  8. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.
  9. #138
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    ďI want people to agree with me and admire my brilliance!Ē

    That sounds more accurate.
    Naw, since people from New York are smarter, better looking, and more humble than the good citizens of Maryland. But I did start a thread on the Christianity board which tackles on sliver of the discussion here. And don't worry, I took it to the section without atheists and nonbelievers.

  10. #139
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    The fault lies with the underlying culture. Your fitness example isn't an analogue because there there is not something that is a part of the gym itself that is working to keep him unfit and that can only be countered by actually going to the gym often enough to counter the element of the gym itself that is causing him to lose fitness.

    A better example would be a gym where everybody at the gym gets together for big parties where everyone overeats, but the ones that come regularly to both the gym and the parties burn enough calories to stay in shape, but the ones that go to the parties but only work out sometimes get fatter than the people that dont go to the gym at all.
    Wow, thatís some high grade insanity that would make Jorge proud. MMís point is really easy to understand:

    The more emerged you are in a culture or group, the more likely you are to follow characteristics of said group.

    So if the churches, you clearly have an immense amount of anger towards, were responsible, weíd see increases of abuse of women the more emerged they are, but we donít. We see the opposite effect, further emerging lessens the chances for men to abuse women. Your example still falls flat because your example tries to blame the gym for people not following their program. For example, MREís are have high calories because they are designed for people out in the field and not couch potatoes. Is the Army to blame if someone decides to eat them for home meals instead of what they are designed for? No, so how could you blame someone when they donít consistently follow what something is met for? Finally, you have no evidence to reach your conclusion. How do you know influences outside of church led to increases of abuse towards women? You donít, you just assume because you really want it to be true. Why do you want it to be true Jim? Are you trying to validate your own belief system?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  11. Amen Mountain Man amen'd this post.
  12. #140
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Wow, that’s some high grade insanity that would make Jorge proud. MM’s point is really easy to understand:

    The more emerged you are in a culture or group, the more likely you are to follow characteristics of said group.

    So if the churches, you clearly have an immense amount of anger towards, were responsible, we’d see increases of abuse of women the more emerged they are, but we don’t. We see the opposite effect, further emerging lessens the chances for men to abuse women. Your example still falls flat because your example tries to blame the gym for people not following their program. For example, MRE’s are have high calories because they are designed for people out in the field and not couch potatoes. Is the Army to blame if someone decides to eat them for home meals instead of what they are designed for? No, so how could you blame someone when they don’t consistently follow what something is met for? Finally, you have no evidence to reach your conclusion. How do you know influences outside of church led to increases of abuse towards women? You don’t, you just assume because you really want it to be true. Why do you want it to be true Jim? Are you trying to validate your own belief system?
    But aren't even the nominal Christian immersed in the culture? There is a difference between the nominal and the "immersed" Christian, the Christian who regularly attends church (the commonly used criteria used to distinguish nominal) is more likely to have a metanoia.

    I asked earlier, how much abuse any woman out to put up with. Paige Patterson received harsh criticism for his advice to women, as well as handling of cases which show a definite pattern. The people who went to him for advice are unlikely to be nominal Christians, such as the woman with two black eyes (which I suppose came from a broken nose). Patterson's response? "I'm happy" because he was saved. But an abuser who is saved becomes a saved abuser, not a non-abuser, much like the addict who is saved becomes a saved addict, not a non addict. That type of miracles (lifting of the spirit of abuse or addiction) are few and far between. Point of salvation is the start, not the end goal. Unless you are a fundamentalist Protestant who assumes that salvation is a culmination of life's journey.

    I am not sure that oxmixmud shows an immense amount of anger toward conservative churches.

  13. Amen NorrinRadd amen'd this post.

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