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Thread: RIP #MeToo

  1. #231
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    For me it's especially disappointing to hear this about Pentecostals, both because I am one, and because some of the major Pentecostal denominations have affirmed egalitarianism for well over 100 years.
    Yeah, Assemblies of God are egalitarian, and some others. I would have to admit my reference to Pentacostal actually refers more to independent charasmatic groups and a few secondary pentecostals, not the Pentecostal USA or AOG.

    Though the influence of people like Piper or Driscoll or others is there as well. With the charasmatic movement there has been a lot of cross pollination as it were of ideas between pentecostals and other non pentecostals.

    One thing I know. After more than 44 years active in various conservative congregations in NC and surrounding areas finding a conservative evangelical church that supported women as elders was in fact unexpected and for me a one of a kind situation.

    The norm has always been. From independent baptist, SBC, charasmatic SBC, presbyterian, Wesleyan, charasmatic house churches, bible churches, even a AOG confregation, women submitting to husbands and men only as elders and pastors has been the focus of the teaching on these matters.

    Where that has not been the normal case is in Methodist congregations.

    (I am a singer and through that have had many strong connections to multiple congregations over the decades)
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2020 at 06:36 AM.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  2. #232
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Also the fact that the vast majority of human societies throughout history and the world today are patriarchal, so it seems to be a bit of a case of confusing correlation with causation. It's not like we have a wealth of other cultures to study to judge their affect on the male/female dynamic.
    Feminism or matriarchy are not the only alternatives to a strong and extreme form of patriarchy. While patriarchy is dominant, most are not of an extreme form. You seem to be using only a strong feminist ideology to analyze the situation!

  3. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  4. #233
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    And you inadvertently pointed to the problem facing the church today: Some problems cannot be dismissed, the woman with two black eyes is an objective fact and reality that exists within the church. And any attempt to pretend that it is not a problem is precisely the mistake the Catholic Church made.
    And you fail to grasp the differences. The SBC isnít a governing authority with a head that can enact broad and sweeping changes. The RCC can. Protestant churches are not Catholic and run differently, even the ones with a governing authority allow more theological drift than Iím sure the RCC allows and they only have authority over a tiny percentage of churches. Do tell, how do you plan on implementing broad, sweeping changes, to a decentralized group with very little control, over the whole? Iím open to suggestions.

    You glibly dismiss the story which is a real life and objective example which centers on this discussion, and that ties back to the original OP of Rogue which started this thread. Snoop Dog is playing the role of the Christian pastors when confronted by such an allegation.
    I didn’t dismiss it at all, I asked for:

    How common is this?
    What proposed changes can happen?
    How do you know these changes will work?
    How do you plan on implementing changes across a decentralized group?

    Sorry that I think like an engineer, but you can condemn all you want, but you can’t do a thing without an understanding of the problem, a solution to the problem, how these changes will actually work, and how to implement changes across the group as a whole. Stuff which well, you haven’t done beyond plenty of emotional reacting.

    The objective fact at the heart of the OP is that an abuse allegation was made, and what followed was found in the countless stories of the me too and church too stories. And those stories are of women who suffered abuse.
    And guess what? Abuse happens anywhere, for any reason, at any time. It isnít limited to a single social group, to a single identity, etc. Rich women, with rich husbands are abused, poor women, are abused. Abuse is everywhere and exist among all social groups and status. That being said, that doesn¬ít tell us:

    - signs to look for
    - commonalities of abuse
    - abuse prevention
    - abuse reporting

    Nor does it explain your plan for implementing changes across a decentralized group, with no central authority.

    Condemn all you want, emotions are not going to answer a word I said.

    And no great irony (!) is that what started out as a condemnation of the libs uneven response as hypocritical boils down to a couple hundred posts showing that Christians are guilty of precisely the thing which the OP skewered the secular libs for!
    Hate to tell you, but abuse exist everywhere. Whatís your plan, what is your objective facts that your plan will work, and your implementation plan to apply it for a broad group, with no central authority.
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-13-2020 at 06:47 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  5. #234
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Yes - a conservative literal reading of the Bible on male and female roles in the family and the church is a patriarchy Pix.
    Now you are effectively accusing the Bible of "encouraging" or "fostering" the abuse of women. Do you really want to go there?
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  6. #235
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    You seem to be using only a strong feminist ideology to analyze the situation!
    I'm sure it makes you feel better to believe that.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  7. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    And you fail to grasp the differences. The SBC isn’t a governing authority with a head that can enact broad and sweeping changes. The RCC can. Protestant churches are not Catholic and run differently, even the ones with a governing authority allow more theological drift than I’m sure the RCC allows and they only have authority over a tiny percentage of churches. Do tell, how do you plan on implementing broad, sweeping changes, to a decentralized group with very little control, over the whole? I’m open to suggestions.



    I didn√ā¬ít dismiss it at all, I asked for:

    How common is this?
    What proposed changes can happen?
    How do you know these changes will work?
    How do you plan on implementing changes across a decentralized group?

    Sorry that I think like an engineer, but you can condemn all you want, but you can√ā¬ít do a thing without an understanding of the problem, a solution to the problem, how these changes will actually work, and how to implement changes across the group as a whole. Stuff which well, you haven√ā¬ít done beyond plenty of emotional reacting.



    And guess what? Abuse happens anywhere, for any reason, at any time. It isn¬ít limited to a single social group, to a single identity, etc. Rich women, with rich husbands are abused, poor women, are abused. Abuse is everywhere and exist among all social groups and status. That being said, that doesn√ā¬ít tell us:

    - signs to look for
    - commonalities of abuse
    - abuse prevention
    - abuse reporting

    Nor does it explain your plan for implementing changes across a decentralized group, with no central authority.

    Condemn all you want, emotions are not going to answer a word I said.



    Hate to tell you, but abuse exist everywhere. What’s your plan, what is your objective facts that your plan will work, and your implementation plan to apply it for a broad group, with no central authority.
    Two black eyes is a good place to start when looking for signs. How many examples of women with bruises are needed? One is too many.

    Yes the SBC has a rather unique position, it has been likened to a loose coalition of similar independent churches. But women basically stampeded the power structures (and I specifically chose that term) of the SBC demanding change, a change of culture. Part of the cultural change which Christians demanded was the all to common inability to recognize a problem even exists. Because one example is too many

    I am not referring to, or appealing to, emotion. That pastors can see a tangible example and not act is scandalous, that a pastor sees no problem while women come forward stating that there is a real problem is a scandal, that the same phenomenon happens in many churches is a scandal. Churches, parachurch groups, even outside the church, it is a problem.

    The fact that the pastor sees no problem while women in the pews, whom he has responsibility for, see it very differently suggests a radical disconnect from reality for that pastor. That in itself is a good sign that there is a real problem in that church. Sophisticated theories are not needed, unless (or until) the problem is even recognized..

    The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the problem that came in more than one here and one there. The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the fact that they had failed in their pastoral role in ministering to victims. The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the long established church structures on a macro level had failed in its ministerial role.

  8. #237
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Two black eyes is a good place to start when looking for signs. How many examples of women with bruises are needed? One is too many.
    Most abuse signs, are not going to be that obvious. It can be subtle and nearly impossible to detect. Heavy make up, long sleeved shirts, or large sunglasses are often used to cover up bruises. Itís very rare that abuse will stand out. Second, youíre emotionally reacting. That doesnít answer the problem solving or implementing change I asked you about.

    Yes the SBC has a rather unique position, it has been likened to a loose coalition of similar independent churches. But women basically stampeded the power structures (and I specifically chose that term) of the SBC demanding change, a change of culture. Part of the cultural change which Christians demanded was the all to common inability to recognize a problem even exists. Because one example is too many
    That still doesnít answered what I asked, the SBC had very little to no control in the day to day operations of SBC churches, so how could they make broad, sweeping changes, when they have no power to do so? Youíre doing this thing again where you react emotionally and donít think. The best they can do is ask, but they canít force changes to be implemented at the church level. So I ask again, how do you plan on putting your unspecified plan into action when there is no central authority to push down changes?

    I am not referring to, or appealing to, emotion. That pastors can see a tangible example and not act is scandalous, that a pastor sees no problem while women come forward stating that there is a real problem is a scandal, that the same phenomenon happens in many churches is a scandal. Churches, parachurch groups, even outside the church, it is a problem.
    Still reacting emotionally? Again, you didnít answer a word I said, the SBC isnít a central body, so tell me your plan and your plan to make it work across a decentralized group? Iíll wait vs your emotional reactions, without thought or plan.

    The fact that the pastor sees no problem while women in the pews, whom he has responsibility for, see it very differently suggests a radical disconnect from reality for that pastor. That in itself is a good sign that there is a real problem in that church. Sophisticated theories are not needed, unless (or until) the problem is even recognized..
    Repeating yourself, emotionally reacting, and not answering anything I said does your case no favor. Itís clear you already made up your mind and could care less about facts, evidence, planning, or implementing anything. Just say, ĎI want to condemn and could care less about factsí? It would save me a lot of time.

    The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the problem that came in more than one here and one there. The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the fact that they had failed in their pastoral role in ministering to victims. The Catholic Church plodded along, oblivious to the long established church structures on a macro level had failed in its ministerial role.
    And again...

    The RCC is a centralized church, with control over the affairs of its churches across the world. The SBC isnít. Why do you fail to understand that?
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-13-2020 at 08:00 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  9. #238
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Now you are effectively accusing the Bible of "encouraging" or "fostering" the abuse of women. Do you really want to go there?
    No I'm not, any more than I would be accusing the Bible of encouraging or fostering slavery if I said that mid 19th century readings of the Bible in defense of slavery were wrong.

    Patriarchal systems underlie the majority of human history. The reason is simple - men are more aggressive and men are stronger (on average). Women have been oppressed and abused in them for the majority of human history. The reason there is simple as well. Men are stronger and men are more aggressive. The fact the Bible was written from within a patriarchal system is neither surprising nor problematic, it just is. But the fact that the cultural elements of patriarchy underlay much of the teachings about the husband wife relationship and church authority, that natural tendency for men in power to abuse women under subjection remains a problem. Such a system fosters the abuse of women because of what human nature is.

    The Gospel itself offers a counter to human nature - but only to the extent the individual is able to shake off both their own sinful nature AND the influence of the culture in which they exist.

    So Ideally, faith in Christ should be sufficient to mitigate the patriarchal pressure.

    But rarely is the ideal of what faith in Christ can do realized in a large percentage of any Christian congregation. And that is what is at issue here.

    So a societal, or church, culture that combats the historical reality of men subjugating women offers a strong counter to the problem as well, one that is less dependent on the self-discipline and self-control of individual men. And churches that do not adopt a strong emphasis on the literal interpretation of scripture as it regards the relationship between men and women both in marriage and in church authority also reduce the impact of that natural tendency for men to exert power over women, and thus reduce the capacity to foster abuse.

    That's just the reality that exists MM.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  10. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Most abuse signs, are not going to be that obvious. It can be subtle and nearly impossible to detect. Heavy make up, long sleeved shirts, or large sunglasses are often used to cover up bruises. Itís very rare that abuse will stand out. Second, you¬íre emotionally reacting. That doesnít answer the problem solving or implementing change I asked you about.



    That still doesnít answered what I asked, the SBC had very little to no control in the day to day operations of SBC churches, so how could they make broad, sweeping changes, when they have no power to do so? Youíre doing this thing again where you react emotionally and donít think. The best they can do is ask, but they can¬ít force changes to be implemented at the church level. So I ask again, how do you plan on putting you unspecified plan into action when there is no central authority to push down changes?



    Still reacting emotionally? Again, you didnít answer a word I said, the SBC isnít a central body, so tell me your plan and you plan to make it work across a decentralized group? Iíll wait vs your emotional reactions, without thought or plan.



    Repeating yourself, emotionally reacting, and not answering anything I said does your case no favor. Itís clear you already made up your mind and could care less about facts, evidence, planning, or implementing anything. Just say, ĎI want to condemn and could care less about factsí? It would save me a lot of time.



    And again...

    The RCC is a centralized church, with control over the affairs of its churches across the world. The SBC isnít. Why do you fail to understand that?
    Yes, most signs are not as obvious as two black eyes. But the fact remains that the example of two black eyes failed to alert the pastor of the problem, declaring it to be a good! Which is a sign that there is a problem.

    You ignored my point,which I highlighted. One goal of the church too/me too is a cultural shift, a profound change such that a woman with two black eyes will prompt a pstor to a realization that there is a problem. There such a thing as a culture of abuse, a culture which tolerates abuse.

    While you call for objective facts, the objective fact I keep presenting is dismissed as emotionalism, which emphasizes my point, the failure of the church to act when confronted. We pulled down the statue of Joe Paterno due to a failure to act, we condemn Catholic leaders due to a failure to act. If a single example which is so obvious that it is over the top as two black eyes cannot prompt Christians to recognize that there is a problem, the example of the male pastor insisting what a great job he did while woman had the opposite story....... Hey, why not have that male pastor be the model to follow? I think most would see the error in that.

    I wonder if you are expecting a concise list of codified rules which would make the problem disappear. And I don't have that, me too and church too does not have that. But most importantly, the church itself does not have that.

  11. #240
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Yes, most signs are not as obvious as two black eyes. But the fact remains that the example of two black eyes failed to alert the pastor of the problem, declaring it to be a good! Which is a sign that there is a problem.

    You ignored my point,which I highlighted. One goal of the church too/me too is a cultural shift, a profound change such that a woman with two black eyes will prompt a pstor to a realization that there is a problem. There such a thing as a culture of abuse, a culture which tolerates abuse.

    While you call for objective facts, the objective fact I keep presenting is dismissed as emotionalism, which emphasizes my point, the failure of the church to act when confronted. We pulled down the statue of Joe Paterno due to a failure to act, we condemn Catholic leaders due to a failure to act. If a single example which is so obvious that it is over the top as two black eyes cannot prompt Christians to recognize that there is a problem, the example of the male pastor insisting what a great job he did while woman had the opposite story....... Hey, why not have that male pastor be the model to follow? I think most would see the error in that.

    I wonder if you are expecting a concise list of codified rules which would make the problem disappear. And I don't have that, me too and church too does not have that. But most importantly, the church itself does not have that.
    The above post demonstrates:

    1. Emotional reacting.
    2. Holier than thou.
    3. Lack of facts.

    What we donít see:

    1. Facts.
    2. Implementation plans.
    3. How you can change a heavily decentralized group, that doesnít answer to a single person or group.

    You can yell, ďTwo black eyes!!!Ē All you want, that doesnít answer anything I said and is simply emotionalism. Facts, figures, plans, got one or is this just more of your self righteous ranting?

    Things can not change, without gathering the facts, understanding the problem, finding solutions, understanding the solutions, and knowing how to make the solutions work. Throwing out self righteous condemning might make you feel better, but it wonít solve your problem. Try approaching the issue as an engineer or scientist and less as someone wanting to throw out self righteous condemning.
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-13-2020 at 08:17 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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