RIP #MeToo

[Mountain Man]

That is what the underlying patriarchal culture does unless the teaching that mitigates its effect is not merely taught but emphasized.

But according to the essay you cited, conservative churches do emphasize teachings that make abuse less likely, and those men who attend church regularly seem to benefit from this emphasis. That nominal attendees do not receive the same benefit is not the fault of the church. May as well blame the fitness club because the guy who works out only a few times a year is out of shape.

We're just going in circles now. I think it's time for me to step out again.

[oxmixmudd]

But according to the essay you cited, conservative churches do emphasize teachings that make abuse less likely, and those men who attend church regularly seem to benefit from this emphasis. That nominal attendees do not receive the same benefit is not the fault of the church. May as well blame the fitness club because the guy who works out only a few times a year is out of shape.

We're just going in circles now. I think it's time for me to step out again.

The fault lies with the underlying culture. Your fitness example isn't an analogue because there there is not something that is a part of the gym itself that is working to keep him unfit and that can only be countered by actually going to the gym often enough to counter the element of the gym itself that is causing him to lose fitness.

A better example would be a gym where everybody at the gym gets together for big parties where everyone overeats, but the ones that come regularly to both the gym and the parties burn enough calories to stay in shape, but the ones that go to the parties but only work out sometimes get fatter than the people that dont go to the gym at all.

[simplicio]

“I want people to agree with me and admire my brilliance!”

That sounds more accurate.

Naw, since people from New York are smarter, better looking, and more humble than the good citizens of Maryland. But I did start a thread on the Christianity board which tackles on sliver of the discussion here. And don't worry, I took it to the section without atheists and nonbelievers.

[lilpixieofterror]

The fault lies with the underlying culture. Your fitness example isn't an analogue because there there is not something that is a part of the gym itself that is working to keep him unfit and that can only be countered by actually going to the gym often enough to counter the element of the gym itself that is causing him to lose fitness.

A better example would be a gym where everybody at the gym gets together for big parties where everyone overeats, but the ones that come regularly to both the gym and the parties burn enough calories to stay in shape, but the ones that go to the parties but only work out sometimes get fatter than the people that dont go to the gym at all.

Wow, that’s some high grade insanity that would make Jorge proud. MM’s point is really easy to understand:

The more emerged you are in a culture or group, the more likely you are to follow characteristics of said group.

So if the churches, you clearly have an immense amount of anger towards, were responsible, we’d see increases of abuse of women the more emerged they are, but we don’t. We see the opposite effect, further emerging lessens the chances for men to abuse women. Your example still falls flat because your example tries to blame the gym for people not following their program. For example, MRE’s are have high calories because they are designed for people out in the field and not couch potatoes. Is the Army to blame if someone decides to eat them for home meals instead of what they are designed for? No, so how could you blame someone when they don’t consistently follow what something is met for? Finally, you have no evidence to reach your conclusion. How do you know influences outside of church led to increases of abuse towards women? You don’t, you just assume because you really want it to be true. Why do you want it to be true Jim? Are you trying to validate your own belief system?

[simplicio]

Wow, thatÂ’s some high grade insanity that would make Jorge proud. MMÂ’s point is really easy to understand:

The more emerged you are in a culture or group, the more likely you are to follow characteristics of said group.

So if the churches, you clearly have an immense amount of anger towards, were responsible, weÂ’d see increases of abuse of women the more emerged they are, but we donÂ’t. We see the opposite effect, further emerging lessens the chances for men to abuse women. Your example still falls flat because your example tries to blame the gym for people not following their program. For example, MREÂ’s are have high calories because they are designed for people out in the field and not couch potatoes. Is the Army to blame if someone decides to eat them for home meals instead of what they are designed for? No, so how could you blame someone when they donÂ’t consistently follow what something is met for? Finally, you have no evidence to reach your conclusion. How do you know influences outside of church led to increases of abuse towards women? You donÂ’t, you just assume because you really want it to be true. Why do you want it to be true Jim? Are you trying to validate your own belief system?

But aren't even the nominal Christian immersed in the culture? There is a difference between the nominal and the "immersed" Christian, the Christian who regularly attends church (the commonly used criteria used to distinguish nominal) is more likely to have a metanoia.

I asked earlier, how much abuse any woman out to put up with. Paige Patterson received harsh criticism for his advice to women, as well as handling of cases which show a definite pattern. The people who went to him for advice are unlikely to be nominal Christians, such as the woman with two black eyes (which I suppose came from a broken nose). Patterson's response? "I'm happy" because he was saved. But an abuser who is saved becomes a saved abuser, not a non-abuser, much like the addict who is saved becomes a saved addict, not a non addict. That type of miracles (lifting of the spirit of abuse or addiction) are few and far between. Point of salvation is the start, not the end goal. Unless you are a fundamentalist Protestant who assumes that salvation is a culmination of life's journey.

I am not sure that oxmixmud shows an immense amount of anger toward conservative churches.

[lilpixieofterror]

But aren't even the nominal Christian immersed in the culture? There is a difference between the nominal and the "immersed" Christian, the Christian who regularly attends church (the commonly used criteria used to distinguish nominal) is more likely to have a metanoia.

Which proves the point already made.

I asked earlier, how much abuse any woman out to put up with. Paige Patterson received harsh criticism for his advice to women, as well as handling of cases which show a definite pattern. The people who went to him for advice are unlikely to be nominal Christians, such as the woman with two black eyes (which I suppose came from a broken nose). Patterson's response? "I'm happy" because he was saved. But an abuser who is saved becomes a saved abuser, not a non-abuser, much like the addict who is saved becomes a saved addict, not a non addict. That type of miracles (lifting of the spirit of abuse or addiction) are few and far between. Point of salvation is the start, not the end goal. Unless you are a fundamentalist Protestant who assumes that salvation is a culmination of life's journey.

We can pull up examples of bad pastors anywhere or poor advice anywhere, does that invalidate them all? Ask CP what his opinions are towards spouse abuse and see what he says. Mine would had tried to get the guy arrested.

I am not sure that oxmixmud shows an immense amount of anger toward conservative churches.

Yeah he does because he is reaching to make them sound bad.

[simplicio]

Which proves the point already made.



We can pull up examples of bad pastors anywhere or poor advice anywhere, does that invalidate them all? Ask CP what his opinions are towards spouse abuse and see what he says. Mine would had tried to get the guy arrested.



Yeah he does because he is reaching to make them sound bad.

How much abuse should a woman put up with? Since you tap dance around it, I'll ask a related question:

How much pedophilia should a church put up with? I think everyone would say emphatically "none", and always have. But what is the real life experience? The diocese of Boston, Catholic, had some serial predators, with the unfortunate distinction of some kind of record. Not exactly Guinness record stuff.

But most importantly, it is not confined to one branch of Christianity, or a distinguishing feature of religion. But we can look at factors which influenced the Catholic Church's response to the scandals. Initially, there was much denial. And the Catholic Church became the textbook example on how not to respond, as well as prototype for setting policies ensure proper responses to it.

So to bring it back to the topic, responding to abuse, how much abuse need a woman put up with, the answer is none, it is contrary to dignity. But what is the real life experience of addressing the situation? Not at all exemplary. At one time, few would address it, the man was head, etc., etc. But it is slowly becoming less accepted, attitudes change over time.

The responses by Paige Patterson ought to be a model to be learned from, instead of defending it at any cost. His response to the rape was similar to, and a pretty good parallel to, the rape defense of Kobe Bryant. It was scandalous in the court room and in the church's institution.

[lilpixieofterror]

How much abuse should a woman put up with? Since you tap dance around it, I'll ask a related question:

How much pedophilia should a church put up with? I think everyone would say emphatically "none", and always have. But what is the real life experience? The diocese of Boston, Catholic, had some serial predators, with the unfortunate distinction of some kind of record. Not exactly Guinness record stuff.

But most importantly, it is not confined to one branch of Christianity, or a distinguishing feature of religion. But we can look at factors which influenced the Catholic Church's response to the scandals. Initially, there was much denial. And the Catholic Church became the textbook example on how not to respond, as well as prototype for setting policies ensure proper responses to it.

So to bring it back to the topic, responding to abuse, how much abuse need a woman put up with, the answer is none, it is contrary to dignity. But what is the real life experience of addressing the situation? Not at all exemplary. At one time, few would address it, the man was head, etc., etc. But it is slowly becoming less accepted, attitudes change over time.

The responses by Paige Patterson ought to be a model to be learned from, instead of defending it at any cost. His response to the rape was similar to, and a pretty good parallel to, the rape defense of Kobe Bryant. It was scandalous in the court room and in the church's institution.

I’ve already answered, stop asking the same question that had obvious been answered time and time again.

[Mountain Man]

Why do you want it to be true Jim? Are you trying to validate your own belief system?

Based on what he said in a previous post, it seems at some point in his "youth", he picked up • Edited by a Moderator • while attending a church, and he would really like to be able to blame anybody but himself. He's also rather obviously using confirmation bias to mollify his conscience.

[lilpixieofterror]

Based on what he said in a previous post, it seems at some point in his "youth", he picked up abusive tendencies while attending a church, and he would really like to be able to blame anybody but himself. He's also rather obviously using confirmation bias to mollify his conscience.

It’s weird really. I’ve been to a few liberal, conservative, and moderate churches and none of them ever struck me as being abusive or encouraging abuse. When I was a young airman, straight out of tech school, the base chapel had ministers from the SBC, United Methodist, Episcopal, and Catholic. The SBC guy never seemed to have any issue with me at all and both his wife and daughter were no pushovers that had rather strong personalities and both perused their own leadership and ministry interest. Their daughter was even a leader and organizer in the FCA. Neither was the Episcopal church minister never discouraged it either and rather enjoyed and encouraged my interest in theological and apologetics works. Never really have recalled any minister I’ve known encouraging or ignoring spouse abuse and the ones I’ve known haven’t seemed to shy away from women in leader rolls nor discouraged it. Many actively encourage it. I‘m basing mine not on one church, but over a dozen I’ve attended over the years. Maybe the fact much of my interactions have been among military ministers, who as well as being ministers are also military officers, but I haven’t seen huge differences among the different denominations nor towards the treatment of women among them.

[oxmixmudd]

Based on what he said in a previous post, it seems at some point in his "youth", he picked up abusive tendencies while attending a church, and he would really like to be able to blame anybody but himself. He's also rather obviously using confirmation bias to mollify his conscience.

Wow - that is a truly low blow even by your standards. Like I said - you clearly do not have a conscience.

[oxmixmudd]

Based on what he said in a previous post, it seems at some point in his "youth", he picked up abusive tendencies while attending a church, and he would really like to be able to blame anybody but himself. He's also rather obviously using confirmation bias to mollify his conscience.

I have reported you for this. It is nothing but a gutter level smear and a lie. I admitting nothing of the sort, and you know it.

[lilpixieofterror]

Wow - that is a truly low blow even by your standards. Like I said - you clearly do not have a conscience.

Anybody else have the gonads to call him on it?

You’re accusing an entire group of people as being women abusers or encouraging abusers so guess you lack a conscience?

[Mountain Man]

Wow - that is a truly low blow...

I don't think it was. You admitted that "negative elements of the patriarchical influence found a foot-hold" in your life at some point, and given the enthusiasm with which you attack conservative churches despite coming face to face with evidence that refutes your accusations, it's not hard to figure out what's really going on in your head. Blaming others for your own failings is not spiritually healthy. I think some brutally honest introspection would be good for you.

[Mountain Man]

It’s weird really. I’ve been to a few liberal, conservative, and moderate churches and none of them ever struck me as being abusive or encouraging abuse. When I was a young airman, straight out of tech school, the base chapel had ministers from the SBC, United Methodist, Episcopal, and Catholic. The SBC guy never seemed to have any issue with me at all and both his wife and daughter were no pushovers that had rather strong personalities and both perused their own leadership and ministry interest. Their daughter was even a leader and organizer in the FCA. Neither was the Episcopal church minister never discouraged it either and rather enjoyed and encouraged my interest in theological and apologetics works. Never really have recalled any minister I’ve known encouraging or ignoring spouse abuse and the ones I’ve known haven’t seemed to shy away from women in leader rolls nor discouraged it. Many actively encourage it. I‘m basing mine not on one church, but over a dozen I’ve attended over the years. Maybe the fact much of my interactions have been among military ministers, who as well as being ministers are also military officers, but I haven’t seen huge differences among the different denominations nor towards the treatment of women among them.

Yeah, ox has subtly changed his tune on that point (though he won't admit it). It's apparently only nominal church goers who have a problem, but he still wants to blame the church for it.