Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

RIP #MeToo

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Patriarchal systems underlie the majority of human history. The reason is simple - men are more aggressive and men are stronger (on average). Women have been oppressed and abused in them for the majority of human history.
    This is what I mean when I say that you are confusing correlation with causation. Since you concede that "patriarchal systems underlie the majority of human history" then why not blame all of society's ills on the patriarchy? It makes just as much sense. But then simplicio suggests that it's not patriarchy in and of itself that's the problem but some extreme form of it, which is a completely different issue. Anything taken to an extreme usually ends up on the wrong side of morality. Do you think children should respect their parents? That it is good to discipline a child? Then let's take that to an extreme and say that a child should be harshly punished any time he doesn't immediately respond to an order from his mother. So now are Biblical exhortations to respect one's parents suddenly a bad thing? Of course not. This applies to patriarchal systems as described in the Bible as well.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      This is what I mean when I say that you are confusing correlation with causation. Since you concede that "patriarchal systems underlie the majority of human history" then why not blame all of society's ills on the patriarchy? It makes just as much sense. But then simplicio suggests that it's not patriarchy in and of itself that's the problem but some extreme form of it, which is a completely different issue. Anything taken to an extreme usually ends up on the wrong side of morality. Do you think children should respect their parents? That it is good to discipline a child? Then let's take that to an extreme and say that a child should be harshly punished any time he doesn't immediately respond to an order from his mother. So now are Biblical exhortations to respect one's parents suddenly a bad thing? Of course not. This applies to patriarchal systems as described in the Bible as well.
      Because the abusive patriarchal systems of history are well documented MM We know exactly how women were demeaned and abused just because they were women throughout nearly the whole of civilization. Go take a course on women in history. Sometimes I think you'd argue Heaven was Hell if you thought you could win by taking the argument on that route.
      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2020, 11:19 AM.
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
        The above post demonstrates:

        1. Emotional reacting.
        2. Holier than thou.
        3. Lack of facts.

        What we don’t see:

        1. Facts.
        2. Implementation plans.
        3. How you can change a heavily decentralized group, that doesn’t answer to a single person or group.

        You can yell, “Two black eyes!!!” All you want, that doesn’t answer anything I said and is simply emotionalism. Facts, figures, plans, got one or is this just more of your self righteous ranting?

        Things can not change, without gathering the facts, understanding the problem, finding solutions, understanding the solutions, and knowing how to make the solutions work. Throwing out self righteous condemning might make you feel better, but it won’t solve your problem. Try approaching the issue as an engineer or scientist and less as someone wanting to throw out self righteous condemning.
        No wonder Beth Moore is so popular. Two black eyes is a clear sign that there is abuse, and that it should not be glanced over or ignored. I don't see that as an emotional response, or a self righteous attitude. Things can change if the culture is changed. We have church too, to know that we have a problem.

        Inaction is not really an option when standing before a social evil, in fact denying that it is a problem because of needing more info and more sociological studies. That is precisely the attitude which Aussie church failed to act.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          No wonder Beth Moore is so popular. Two black eyes is a clear sign that there is abuse, and that it should not be glanced over or ignored. I don't see that as an emotional response, or a self righteous attitude. Things can change if the culture is changed. We have church too, to know that we have a problem.

          Inaction is not really an option when standing before a social evil, in fact denying that it is a problem because of needing more info and more sociological studies. That is precisely the attitude which Aussie church failed to act.
          That doesn’t answer anything and badmouthing me only makes matters worse. I asked for your fix it plan, produce it. Can you?
          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            Because the abusive patriarchal systems of history are well documented...
            Not to be confused with the non-abusive patriarchal system as taught by scripture and conservative churches.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              That doesn’t answer anything and badmouthing me only makes matters worse. I asked for your fix it plan, produce it. Can you?
              What do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.

              You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an islated example at all.

              It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.

              There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                That doesnÂ’t answer anything and badmouthing me only makes matters worse. I asked for your fix it plan, produce it. Can you?
                What do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.

                You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an isolated example at all.

                It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.

                There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Not to be confused with the non-abusive patriarchal system as taught by scripture and conservative churches.
                  Unfortunately what is taught by scripture is hampered by the effect of the enclosing patriarchal culture on human nature. Recognize that Paul and Christ were already pushing back again the oppressiveness of the cultural patriarchy they were teaching or writing within, recognize that there is a bigger principle taught directly in scripture of equality before Christ, which specifically mentions male and female, of mutual submission and servant leadership, not to mention freedom from the law and legal systems of "do not handle and do not touch", and and we can be free then to unfetter the modern church from the ancient cultural elements that provide opportunity for the flesh in terms of the abuse of women.
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-13-2020, 03:17 PM.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    Unfortunately what is taught by scripture is hampered by the effect of the enclosing patriarchal culture on human nature. Recognize that Paul and Christ were already pushing back again the oppressiveness of the cultural patriarchy they were teaching or writing within, recognize that there is a bigger principle taught directly in scripture of equality before Christ, which specifically mentions male and female, of mutual submission and servant leadership, not to mention freedom from the law and legal systems of "do not handle and do not touch", and and we can be free then to unfetter the modern church from the ancient cultural elements that provide opportunity for the flesh in terms of the abuse of women.
                    Right... let's reinterpret scripture to be more in line with current cultural norms. That's the wide road that leads to heresy.

                    What you're not getting is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a patriarchal culture, that the leadership role of the man was ordained by God from the beginning, and that it does not inevitably lead to the abuse of women.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Right... let's reinterpret scripture to be more in line with current cultural norms. That's the wide road that leads to heresy.
                      I completely agree with this. If Scripture does endorse patriarchy, that is the practice Christians should follow, even if it turns out that the best scientific studies unequivocally show it is harmful.

                      What you're not getting is that there is nothing inherently wrong with a patriarchal culture, that the leadership role of the man was ordained by God from the beginning, and that it does not inevitably lead to the abuse of women.
                      Like other egalitarians, I do not believe "that the leadership role of many was ordained from the beginning." I believe equal partnership was the original created state, and that male-dominated hierarchy is an artifact of the Fall. I believe some NT passages *can* support patriarchy, but that on the whole, the NT shows there is to be no sex-based hierarchy in the home or in the church.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        What do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.
                        According to polls, there is anywhere from 60 million to 100 million Americans that attend church services weekly, out of these, at least 30 million are women, so we should obviously expect something just due to sheer volume. Just because something is on the TV or internet doesn’t mean it’s as big of a problem as you think.

                        You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an islated example at all.
                        That is a classic emotional appeal that doesn’t tell me:

                        - the extent of the issue
                        - the cause of the issue
                        - the solution, to the issue
                        - the implementation of the solution

                        I’ve done safety communities before. Complaining about a problem and offering no solution, solves nothing. Now tell me the solution, do you even have one or is this just a way for you to bash non Catholics and act as though the RCC is perfect?

                        It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.
                        Yet, you’ve heard stories around here of victims, of domestic abuse, given help and care by their church, including help leaving their abuser, with several men and women saying domestic abuse is never okay and women should leave. We can pass anecdotes all day that say whatever we want to hear, it doesn’t tell me a thing.

                        There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.
                        You haven’t told me the extent of the issue and have flat ignored others telling you the opposite with their own anecdotes. Maybe you should try objective facts vs emotional pleading.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          According to polls, there is anywhere from 60 million to 100 million Americans that attend church services weekly, out of these, at least 30 million are women, so we should obviously expect something just due to sheer volume. Just because something is on the TV or internet doesnÂ’t mean itÂ’s as big of a problem as you think.



                          That is a classic emotional appeal that doesnÂ’t tell me:

                          - the extent of the issue
                          - the cause of the issue
                          - the solution, to the issue
                          - the implementation of the solution

                          IÂ’ve done safety communities before. Complaining about a problem and offering no solution, solves nothing. Now tell me the solution, do you even have one or is this just a way for you to bash non Catholics and act as though the RCC is perfect?



                          Yet, youÂ’ve heard stories around here of victims, of domestic abuse, given help and care by their church, including help leaving their abuser, with several men and women saying domestic abuse is never okay and women should leave. We can pass anecdotes all day that say whatever we want to hear, it doesnÂ’t tell me a thing.



                          You havenÂ’t told me the extent of the issue and have flat ignored others telling you the opposite with their own anecdotes. Maybe you should try objective facts vs emotional pleading.
                          I guess pastoral responsiblity counts less that the statistical analyses, the theoretic constructs and theologies. A pastor confronted with the woman with two black eyes shouldn't need those things: the soul in need and in need of healing ought to be able to find refuge within the church. Church too recounts tale after tale of hard examples of the church's failures in its role of ministering to souls in its care. Emotion is not a handicap to Christianity, nor to the pastoral care of the flock.

                          Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.

                          Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            I completely agree with this. If Scripture does endorse patriarchy, that is the practice Christians should follow, even if it turns out that the best scientific studies unequivocally show it is harmful.
                            I assume this is sarcastic?

                            I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.

                            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            Like other egalitarians, I do not believe "that the leadership role of [man] was ordained from the beginning." I believe equal partnership was the original created state, and that male-dominated hierarchy is an artifact of the Fall. I believe some NT passages *can* support patriarchy, but that on the whole, the NT shows there is to be no sex-based hierarchy in the home or in the church.
                            In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Biblically there is certainly a very solid case for equality of value and worth between men and women, just as there is a very clear case for a difference in roles and responsibilities within their marriage relationship. Equal (in value), different (in responsibility and God-given duty to each other in marriage).
                              ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                                I guess pastoral responsiblity counts less that the statistical analyses, the theoretic constructs and theologies. A pastor confronted with the woman with two black eyes shouldn't need those things: the soul in need and in need of healing ought to be able to find refuge within the church. Church too recounts tale after tale of hard examples of the church's failures in its role of ministering to souls in its care. Emotion is not a handicap to Christianity, nor to the pastoral care of the flock.
                                Stop with your self righteous, holier than thou, because stats are important to understand how widespread a problem is and what solutions work best. Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy for a reason, stop using it.

                                Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.
                                And that’s an ignorant opinion that I have corrected you on, countless times, and you’ve ignored it. What part of,”Baptist churches and the RCC function differently” do you not grasp? Baptist churches, for the most part, function independently from each other and may have no clue what is going on at the Baptist church a mile down the road. In the RCC’s case, there is no way upper leadership could not be aware of the problem because the RCC functions in a similar matter to a government. What part of this do you not grasp? This isn’t hard to figure out, there is very little that an independent group can do to another one.

                                Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately
                                Do you have a massive problem with reading? How do you implement a change, across a group that runs independently and you have zero control over? Is this concept difficult for you to grasp or do you simply not bother to read?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                137 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                356 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                112 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                362 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X