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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Jim thanks for your explanation(s)

    I will accept your word for what you mean (who else knows you better? )

    But this discussion is just going around in circles between you and MM. I think I will step out and lurk for a while or unsubscribe.
    Thanks Sparko, and again thanks for letting it be a discussion between you and I

    But it is round and round at this point with MM - that is why I stopped replying to him directly and just offered my summary statement. I believe I've made the point I wanted to make, and unless there is something technical that needs to be added or someone else raises a legitimate point about what's been presented, I'm pretty much done myself.

    I am a bit curious of simplicio (or others from the RCC persuasion) wants to add anything relative to an RCC perspective in that the patriarchy of the RCC is somewhat thoroughly entrenched, but I don't think RCC is quite as vigorous on the wives submit to husbands end of it. Am I wrong on that? (they seem to have more problems on the priests that ought not be priests end of abuse)
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-10-2020, 01:49 PM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      snipped

      I am a bit curious of simplicio (or others from the RCC persuasion) wants to add anything relative to an RCC perspective in that the patriarchy of the RCC is somewhat thoroughly entrenched, but I don't think RCC is quite as vigorous on the wives submit to husbands end of it. Am I wrong on that? (they seem to have more problems on the priests that ought not be priests end of abuse)
      An ecumenical polemic? :) Huge topic.

      Terms like headship and complementarianism aren't quite as common within catholicism, and the issues often centers on the priesthood and church governance. And we have four doctors of the Church who are of the weaker sex, Hildegard, Catherine of Sienna (who forced princes of the world to back down), Terese of Avile and Therese of Lisieux, and I anticipate the additions of Mother Angelica and the unlettered Sister Faustina (!)

      But the whole topic does involve many other issues from society: the decline of the nuclear family, working mothers, decline of fatherhood, patriarchy as a negative term (and feminism as a negative term within the church), evolving views on sexual ethics, and so on. The theological notion of the Fatherhood of G-d stands at the center of Trinitarian Christianity (and most Christians are at best only nominally trinitarian) and submission to divine truth sums up our response. Marriage is used to describe the church and salvation. Submission and authority, love and chastisement, head and heart, bride and groom, etc., are not always opposites but are not easy to reconcile.

      The real lions of social conservatism are the lionesses: Mother Angelica on the Catholic side, Phyllis Schafly and Anita Bryant on the evangelical side, all with spines of steel. (Mother Angelica famously stood contra the Bishop, and only backed down reluctantly, challenging the Church's view on authority and headship). The issues of feminism, egalitarianism, patriarchy, family, marriage, have been inadvertently reinterpreted via the conservatives.

      Is a Fred Phelps of Westboro infamy somehow better suited to teach than a woman anchored in orthodoxy? Is a female twebber acting appropriately in trying to teach you the error of your ways on the things of G-d?

      As to the topic of abuse, refer back to the OP, which brought in the uneven and seemingly hypocritical reactions to criticisms of the recently deceased. The rape case used all the tactics that lawyers use to vigorously defend a client in an adversarial system of the courts. But the church too, and the secular me too, movement note the similarities within the church: the woman in the role of adversary!

      On the one hand, many are arguing that the problem (if it exists as a real problem) is not systemic, and the church does not contribute to the problem, on the other hand, the church too movement, the pressure brought by women, acting en masse, on the SBC in recent years shows that some see it as a problem within the church, and big enough that reform is needed. Which is ironic, after the Catholic child abuse hit with full fury, many were drawn to the inescapable conclusion that the church did contribute to the problem, even if passively. The same arguments made here did not hold up to scrutiny then.

      How many children ought to be victimized? How many punches must a woman endure? Zero tolerance and action plans are a nice first step, but a pastor is a shepherd with responsibility to the flock; and whenever there is a victim, there is the corresponding victimizer. How can that shepherd deal with the souls of those involved? The church too movement showed that the victims can come in discrete quantities, while the victimizers will multiply. In the Kobe rape case, the woman faced the(alleged) rapist, lawyers who outed her, a backlash from the public etc. In many cases, the victim is marginalized, sometimes even ostracized by the local church. What attitudes and dispositions affect that reaction? Ignoring it is hardly the right thing to do, pretending it does not happen is also wrong.

      A long post, but the first several paragraphs bring in topics which have bearing and haven't been aired here, the last three paragraphs zero in one argument.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
        An ecumenical polemic? :) Huge topic.

        Terms like headship and complementarianism aren't quite as common within catholicism, and the issues often centers on the priesthood and church governance. And we have four doctors of the Church who are of the weaker sex, Hildegard, Catherine of Sienna (who forced princes of the world to back down), Terese of Avile and Therese of Lisieux, and I anticipate the additions of Mother Angelica and the unlettered Sister Faustina (!)

        But the whole topic does involve many other issues from society: the decline of the nuclear family, working mothers, decline of fatherhood, patriarchy as a negative term (and feminism as a negative term within the church), evolving views on sexual ethics, and so on. The theological notion of the Fatherhood of G-d stands at the center of Trinitarian Christianity (and most Christians are at best only nominally trinitarian) and submission to divine truth sums up our response. Marriage is used to describe the church and salvation. Submission and authority, love and chastisement, head and heart, bride and groom, etc., are not always opposites but are not easy to reconcile.

        The real lions of social conservatism are the lionesses: Mother Angelica on the Catholic side, Phyllis Schafly and Anita Bryant on the evangelical side, all with spines of steel. (Mother Angelica famously stood contra the Bishop, and only backed down reluctantly, challenging the Church's view on authority and headship). The issues of feminism, egalitarianism, patriarchy, family, marriage, have been inadvertently reinterpreted via the conservatives.

        Is a Fred Phelps of Westboro infamy somehow better suited to teach than a woman anchored in orthodoxy? Is a female twebber acting appropriately in trying to teach you the error of your ways on the things of G-d?

        As to the topic of abuse, refer back to the OP, which brought in the uneven and seemingly hypocritical reactions to criticisms of the recently deceased. The rape case used all the tactics that lawyers use to vigorously defend a client in an adversarial system of the courts. But the church too, and the secular me too, movement note the similarities within the church: the woman in the role of adversary!

        On the one hand, many are arguing that the problem (if it exists as a real problem) is not systemic, and the church does not contribute to the problem, on the other hand, the church too movement, the pressure brought by women, acting en masse, on the SBC in recent years shows that some see it as a problem within the church, and big enough that reform is needed. Which is ironic, after the Catholic child abuse hit with full fury, many were drawn to the inescapable conclusion that the church did contribute to the problem, even if passively. The same arguments made here did not hold up to scrutiny then.

        How many children ought to be victimized? How many punches must a woman endure? Zero tolerance and action plans are a nice first step, but a pastor is a shepherd with responsibility to the flock; and whenever there is a victim, there is the corresponding victimizer. How can that shepherd deal with the souls of those involved? The church too movement showed that the victims can come in discrete quantities, while the victimizers will multiply. In the Kobe rape case, the woman faced the(alleged) rapist, lawyers who outed her, a backlash from the public etc. In many cases, the victim is marginalized, sometimes even ostracized by the local church. What attitudes and dispositions affect that reaction? Ignoring it is hardly the right thing to do, pretending it does not happen is also wrong.

        A long post, but the first several paragraphs bring in topics which have bearing and haven't been aired here, the last three paragraphs zero in one argument.
        You make excellent points. The part in bold really highlights (to me at least) why it is tricky to navigate the issue of the correlation between a patriarchal society and female abuse, in that there are legitimate reasons for the church to be reluctant to abandon the teachings that are the subject of the issues I've been raising here. That a patriarchy has a verifiable influence on fostering abuse does not change the fact there are in fact positive elements of it, even elements important to creating a stable and functional society, and certainly elements of our understanding of God that are also derived from it. Knee jerk reactions to male abuse of power can lead to female abuse of power, or breakdowns of critical social structures that derive their strength from the differentiation of roles with - yes - a complementary effect that is stronger than two people equally responsible for all the tasks that are required to build a strong family and society.

        But as they say, the first step to recovery is admitting there is a problem. Right now - especially in the Convservative Evangelical Churches, we are still in the stage were we are denying there is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          You make excellent points. The part in bold really highlights (to me at least) why it is tricky to navigate the issue of the correlation between a patriarchal society and female abuse, in that there are legitimate reasons for the church to be reluctant to abandon the teachings that are the subject of the issues I've been raising here. That a patriarchy has a verifiable influence on fostering abuse does not change the fact there are in fact positive elements of it, even elements important to creating a stable and functional society, and certainly elements of our understanding of God that are also derived from it. Knee jerk reactions to male abuse of power can lead to female abuse of power, or breakdowns of critical social structures that derive their strength from the differentiation of roles with - yes - a complementary effect that is stronger than two people equally responsible for all the tasks that are required to build a strong family and society.

          But as they say, the first step to recovery is admitting there is a problem. Right now - especially in the Convservative Evangelical Churches, we are still in the stage were we are denying there is a problem that needs to be dealt with.
          Which is why certain speakers and writers are gaining influence, they strike a chord with people, which is not accounted for by the quip on itchy ears. Rachel Held Evans, and Beth Moore made inroads because of an emphasis on areas which "mainstream" conservatives are ignoring.

          Evangelicalism, and fundamentalism, is going through changes, demographics are making it shift, young evangelicals are not quite as conservative.

          I started a thread on the Christian section about Esther, drawing on various and conflicting interpretations of the book with respect to headship and complementarianism.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            And yet there are countless instances where, even in cases of child sexual abuse. Churches of all stripes and colors have moved to suppress knowledge of such acts and protect leaders engaging in them. It is no less true for male abuse of women by leaders or husbands in churches. And some of that stems from the belief women should submit themselves to the male authority in the church and their homes which is the inevitable conclusion of a literal reading of the text that is not willing to consider the possible cultural artifacts reflected in the text - in other words, conservative Christian Theology
            It depends on what you mean by "conservative Christian Theology."

            Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Ben Witherington, Phil Payne, and others are theologically "conservative" in that they are inerrantists regarding Scripture, and they are "conservative" regarding sexual practice (i.e. adultery, fornication, and homosexual practice are sinful). But they are egalitarian regarding the man/woman authority structures in both home and church.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Thanks for the respect

              Again, please be careful to notice the difference between teaching abuse (or ignoring it) and creating an environment that encourages it (fosters is probably a better word).
              Perhaps "unintentionally provides fertile soil for it."
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Again - you make good points. But I think the author appears to have a balanced and educated understanding of many of the factors. Note that while the paper wants to push back against the idea that Patriarchy can be treated as the SOLE cause of abuse, he does several times make clear that the research is clear that there is a strong positive correlation between patriarchal culture and spousal abuse.

                He does note in the paper itself that one could argue that more modern (i.e. more egalitarian) applications of the balancing of the scriptural injunctions for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church (i.e. sacrificially, with an eye towards being a servant leader) may not actually qualify as a patriarchal model, at least not in practical terms.
                I think this is true. While the shorter domestic code passage to the sister church at Colossae was more one-sided (though still kinder and gentler than the typical non-Christian version), the one in Ephesians has more obvious off-sets. It begins by telling members *all* to submit to "one another." Then the first verse telling wives to submit grammatically relies on the verb in the "one another verse." Then eventually the passage concludes by telling masters to treat their slaves "the same way" the slaves had just been instructed to treat the masters. That is clearly not the usual paterfamilias pattern of the wider society.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                  My friend, we can play this game all day long, but it doesn’t change the facts or the stats. The basic premise is that rises in feminist ideals leads to lessening of abuse, but the facts do not speak that at all. The facts tell us boy friends are the most common domestic abusers and industries that pay lip service to feminist ideals are the ones under attack for sexual harassment or sexual assault, so the idea that ‘these views lead to abuse!’ appears to not be based in fact.



                  I did, you just don’t like the answer. Let’s start here, what industry has #metoo taken down most?



                  I had a pastor tell a domestic abuse victim, “Where does the Bible say you should be abused?” and she couldn’t say where. That should answer the question quite well.
                  I think some patriarchal pastors would point to 1 Pet. 3:1, though of course I don't agree with them.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    But that is not the underlying premise.

                    The fact patriarchal cultures foster the abuse of women does not necessarily imply feminist cultures do not.

                    The premise is that egalitarian relationships (all other things being equal) should lead to less abused women. egalitarian is not feminist, it is egalitarian. That is, feminism is a response to patriarchy. Sometimes violent and oppressive in its own terms. egalitarian is a mutually respectful relationship that sees the worth of the man and the women in the relationship as EQUAL. ...
                    Unfortunately this is a nuance many in the egalitarian camp do not grasp. They usually think of feminism as the struggle of oppressed women to merely find equality. They don't grasp that the etymology of the word itself suggests it is ALL about what is good for women, viewing men as the enemy or at best irrelevant. They are unfamiliar with the *decades*-old quote, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      ...

                      But to the point I am making, Aggressively implementing this hierarchy as I have seen done all too often in conservative churches, especially those tending towards the teaching of people like Piper or Evans or Driscoll or Grudem, has very negative and not rarely abusive consequences for the women in those churches. It is an issue - despite the protests from MM and Pix.

                      ...
                      Evans? Surely not the late Rachel Held Evans.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        Wow - that's the simple part. It's been explained a bunch of times too. That is what the underlying patriarchal culture does unless the teaching that mitigates its effect is not merely taught but emphasized. It's like giving someone a powerful blue laser but not telling them about the dangers of looking a laser light without protective goggles. As long as you use the goggles, everything is fine. But without them, you can go blind. And you'd better make sure everyone you invite for a demo has them too.

                        It's there in the stats MM. Nominal Conservative Church Goers have the highest abuse rates. They get (or got in the past) the patriarchal culture, but they don't get the required emphasis on the teaching that mitigates its effect.

                        How can conservative churches avoid that consequence? Move away from the strong patriarchal emphasis. Allow women a place - adopt a more egalitarian approach.
                        Simplify: If the church has the position that a male must always be in the highest position of authority and the sporadically attending man is not there frequently enough to hear the ameliorating "male leadership should be benevolent and self-sacrificing" -- assuming that is even taught -- then the patriarchal message itself, and the church that promotes it, bears at least some blame.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                          Accuses entire groups of Christians of being women abusers = perfectly acceptable.

                          Points out Jim’s own words = evil!

                          Hypocrisy, got to love it.
                          Come on, Pix, Jim did NOT do that.
                          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                          Beige Federalist.

                          Nationalist Christian.

                          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                          Justice for Matthew Perna!

                          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                            I think some patriarchal pastors would point to 1 Pet. 3:1, though of course I don't agree with them.
                            An important point is that submission in the natural order (family) is probably inconsistent with feminism (I honestly don't know enough about feminism), though egalitartian view does, or can, account for submission.

                            The only alternative to complementarianism is not just feminist ideals.

                            Many point to the natural order 'recapitulating' the divine, family relationships are modeled on the divine, though the terminology associated with the ideas are controversial.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Come on, Pix, Jim did NOT do that.
                              I’d disagree, Jim is very quick to paint his opponents as evil/encouraging evil and is incapable of seeing the shades that exist between the two extremes. The SBC isn’t like the Catholics, Methodist, Lutherans, etc. It’s looser and churches have more variations than what you’d see in some other affiliates. Painting the SBC as spouse abusers or encouraging it is as dishonest as you can get.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                                I’d disagree, Jim is very quick to paint his opponents as evil/encouraging evil and is incapable of seeing the shades that exist between the two extremes. The SBC isn’t like the Catholics, Methodist, Lutherans, etc. It’s looser and churches have more variations than what you’d see in some other affiliates. Painting the SBC as spouse abusers or encouraging it is as dishonest as you can get.
                                I do think that Jim is aware that the SBC is a big tent, Beth Moore has a foothold in the SBC as well as her fiercest opponents. There are Baptists who have an egalitarian view. I doubt his reference to the SBC was meant to be viewed that way.

                                Comment

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