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Thread: RIP #MeToo

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Got to love the black/white thinker because, if anything, the things I noticed are indicators of change. Also, Catholics are hardly in the position to preach to anyone about abuse cases. How long did the RCC hide priest, who were caught abusing children, again?
    Too long was the problem swept aside.And look how well it turned out for the Catholic Church!

    So we have a model to follow here, a model on WHAT NOT TO DO. Ignoring the problem and relying on some of the same arguments being used here was a disaster for the Catholic Church. Due to the inaction some left, ministries suffered.

    Evangelicalism is in flux, SBC is shrinking for the first time, the Rachel Held Evans of the world are siphoning off members to more liberal churches, due to inaction and the poor response by the church, by church leaders. It is not like any real issue is at stake. Complementarianism can survive a cultural shift, not so sure that the patriarchy can though.

    No, egalitarianism does not mean you have to throw out the bible, nor does complementarianism mean you have to punch your wife. Those are the extreme caricatures of the positions.

  2. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Would you consider Glenn Miller, of Christian Think-tank, conservative? I would, go read his articles on women in the church sometime Jim and see what he says. As usual, you fail to account for shades between black/white and only see things the way you see it and thatís it. I have my positions quite clear, to several conservative Christians over the years, writing essays on the topic and making it no secret online or offline that I am an egalitarian. The pushback Iíve received has been barely any. Am I a conservative Christian Jim? Even with my theistic evolution views? With my egalitarian outlook? How about rogue? Like I said Jim, youíre fitting people into boxes you want them to fit into without any consideration that people do not always fit neatly into boxes.

    This is all I'm going to address at this point. This response here has no discernable correlation with the text you are responding to. A response to the text I gave would be:

    1) a counter example
    2) agreement that scripture defines a patriarchy.

    What you wrote is instead 'something else' that I honestly can't even tie meaningfully into the discussion. Why you wrote it I don't know. So maybe you could explain how you think what you wrote above is connected to the text of mine that you replied to. Maybe if you can connect them we can find a meaningful path to communication.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-12-2020 at 12:48 PM.
    He will reply, ĎTruly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

  4. #223
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Too long was the problem swept aside.And look how well it turned out for the Catholic Church!

    So we have a model to follow here, a model on WHAT NOT TO DO. Ignoring the problem and relying on some of the same arguments being used here was a disaster for the Catholic Church. Due to the inaction some left, ministries suffered.

    Evangelicalism is in flux, SBC is shrinking for the first time, the Rachel Held Evans of the world are siphoning off members to more liberal churches, due to inaction and the poor response by the church, by church leaders. It is not like any real issue is at stake. Complementarianism can survive a cultural shift, not so sure that the patriarchy can though.

    No, egalitarianism does not mean you have to throw out the bible, nor does complementarianism mean you have to punch your wife. Those are the extreme caricatures of the positions.

    And do tell, how do you plan on making this work? The SBC isnít a governing body like the Vatican is nor are the thousands of evangelical churches ran by a central body. The bottom line is Jim has no proof of his claims, none because to claim that X is better than Y at preventing A, you need a way to compare the two to a base sample. We need to know:

    1. GP spouse abuse rates.
    2. Conservative church spouse abuse rates.
    3. Liberal church spouse abuse rates.
    4. Moderate church spouse abuse rates.

    We donít have 3 or 4, so how can you make a claim that egalitarianism is best at preventing domestic abuse, when you donít know what the abuse rate is? We donít have that data and thus Jimís entire argument is based on an assumption. That isnít science, itís ideology.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    And do tell, how do you plan on making this work? The SBC isn’t a governing body like the Vatican is nor are the thousands of evangelical churches ran by a central body. The bottom line is Jim has no proof of his claims, none because to claim that X is better than Y at preventing A, you need a way to compare the two to a base sample. We need to know:

    1. GP spouse abuse rates.
    2. Conservative church spouse abuse rates.
    3. Liberal church spouse abuse rates.
    4. Moderate church spouse abuse rates.

    We don’t have 3 or 4, so how can you make a claim that egalitarianism is best at preventing domestic abuse, when you don’t know what the abuse rate is? We don’t have that data and thus Jim’s entire argument is based on an assumption. That isn’t science, it’s ideology.
    You act as if the Body of Christ is a secular institution, dependent on the statistical analyses! At one time monks spent time hunched over desks copying scripture, now we need monks pouring over spreadsheets trained in the arts and science of statistical analysees.

    The Church does not run on empirical evidences. Oxmix allowed the discussion to move to flawed social science studies, dependent on the statistical analysees (and other gladly followed) and there it stayed for pages!

    One piece of anecdotal evidence is enough for me: The male pastor who insisted that he and his church were doing a fine job policing abuse. the next day, women from the pews came forward, secretly, anonymously, and cautiously, to provide many stories of abuse. The male pastor and the women congregants, who was right, given the radically differing perceptions? The man of course, he has theological training and the authority of a teaching office?

    The tale of the woman with two black eyes going to Paige Patterson was not about complementarianism, it was about a sheep going to a shepherd. Misericordia, misery in the heart often finds itself going to the pastor, but finding......inspiring stories about saving the soul, but nothing for the soul in need standing before the pastor.

    Following the Pharisses, the American church is discussing the finer details of washing hands and the limits and extent of the qorban (a reference to Mark 7 in case anyone wants to see if the New Testament has anything to offer the Church in America)

  6. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    MM - you are unfortunately just either obstinate enough to purposefully ignore, or ignorant enough not to know how to parse, the data and content of the source I gave - either way there is nothing I can do to change that fact.

    That you are ignorant of the teachings of people like Piper and others, and how they have been applied, is good - for you and the people in your church, assuming you even understand the implications in this area in your own congregation (the fact your congregation enforces an all male authority structure means the probability that has negative effects you may not be aware of is high). But it does not change the reality that this is an ongoing issue where such actions are common. I've seen it across multiple congregations and towns in the south - which is where the majority of my interactions with these issue have taken place. They are not cults. They are standard Presbyterian, SBC, Fundamentalist, and Pentecostal congregations. IT is what it is.
    For me it's especially disappointing to hear this about Pentecostals, both because I am one, and because some of the major Pentecostal denominations have affirmed egalitarianism for well over 100 years.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  7. #226
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    You act as if the Body of Christ is a secular institution, dependent on the statistical analyses! At one time monks spent time hunched over desks copying scripture, now we need monks pouring over spreadsheets trained in the arts and science of statistical analysees.
    The claim that X belief causes A action is a claim that can be scientifically tested and objectively confirmed. Plenty of Churches and religious groups run hospitals, are those not places where science takes place too? It is a very easy experiment to perform. Science is just another way to study Godís creation.

    The Church does not run on empirical evidences. Oxmix allowed the discussion to move to flawed social science studies, dependent on the statistical analysees (and other gladly followed) and there it stayed for pages!

    One piece of anecdotal evidence is enough for me: The male pastor who insisted that he and his church were doing a fine job policing abuse. the next day, women from the pews came forward, secretly, anonymously, and cautiously, to provide many stories of abuse. The male pastor and the women congregants, who was right, given the radically differing perceptions? The man of course, he has theological training and the authority of a teaching office?
    And I can dig up anecdotal evidence that says the opposite. Thereís a reason the definition of anecdotal is:

    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    The reason (I suspect) that you donít want the objective facts is because objective facts are harder to dispute. Thing is, abusers exist everywhere in all facets of life. From the classic deadbeat to the upstanding member of the community. The only way to prove the claim being made is an scientific analysis and guess what? There is none.

    The tale of the woman with two black eyes going to Paige Patterson was not about complementarianism, it was about a sheep going to a shepherd. Misericordia, misery in the heart often finds itself going to the pastor, but finding......inspiring stories about saving the soul, but nothing for the soul in need standing before the pastor.
    Hate to tell you this, but your own church was well aware of its molesting priest among its ranks and rather than dealing with the problem, they simply sent them to a new church while silently paying off victims. This is much worse because unlike the SBC, where there is not much upper authority, the RCC leadership was compliant in the abuse. If you were consistent, in your logic, you would be equally condemning, but youíre not.

    Following the Pharisses, the American church is discussing the finer details of washing hands and the limits and extent of the qorban (a reference to Mark 7 in case anyone wants to see if the New Testament has anything to offer the Church in America)
    Why are you still Catholic, with the above abuses? FYI, Iím not a Baptist, theologically I mostly align with Methodist.
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-13-2020 at 04:25 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  8. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    The claim that X belief causes A action is a claim that can be scientifically tested and objectively confirmed. Plenty of Churches and religious groups run hospitals, are those not places where science takes place too? It is a very easy experiment to perform. Science is just another way to study God’s creation.



    And I can dig up anecdotal evidence that says the opposite. There’s a reason the definition of anecdotal is:

    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

    The reason (I suspect) that you don’t want the objective facts is because objective facts are harder to dispute. Thing is, abusers exist everywhere in all facets of life. From the classic deadbeat to the upstanding member of the community. The only way to prove the claim being made is an scientific analysis and guess what? There is none.

    [qoute]The tale of the woman with two black eyes going to Paige Patterson was not about complementarianism, it was about a sheep going to a shepherd. Misericordia, misery in the heart often finds itself going to the pastor, but finding......inspiring stories about saving the soul, but nothing for the soul in need standing before the pastor.
    Hate to tell you this, but your own church was well aware of its molesting priest among its ranks and rather than dealing with the problem, they simply sent them to a new church while silently paying off victims. This is much worse because unlike the SBC, where there is not much upper authority, the RCC leadership was compliant in the abuse. If you were consistent, in your logic, you would be equally condemning, but you’re not.



    Why are you still Catholic, with the above abuses? FYI, I’m not a Baptist, theologically I mostly align with Methodist.[/QUOTE]

    The anecdote about the differences in opinion between the male leader, who sees no problem, and the woman church member who has the opposite view is enough in and of itself to give us cause to consider. In that particular case the needs of the woman was not being met, the role and duties of the pastor was not properly carried out. The objective fact here is that women see a problem while the role of the Church is to deny that there is a problem at all.

    In other news, related news, Snoop dog apologized for his comments (or more accurately, a limited apology) to Gayle King. As I noted before in this thread, one common reaction which me too highlights is the reactions to a woman who has the audacity to speak out, against any perceived criticism which a rape allegation brings. So much so, that it is almost a universal.

    What objective facts? The discussion breaks down, one side sees a problem, while the other side sees no problem at all!

    Why am I still Catholic, even after all those scandals? "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" The Catholic Church certainly ignored the problem, staking out positions which ran through the instittion. But they have also prayerfully examined themselves and have since staked out a position, made a stand, a repentence if you will, which is a change in course, a change in attitude.

  9. #228
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    The anecdote about the differences in opinion between the male leader, who sees no problem, and the woman church member who has the opposite view is enough in and of itself to give us cause to consider. In that particular case the needs of the woman was not being met, the role and duties of the pastor was not properly carried out. The objective fact here is that women see a problem while the role of the Church is to deny that there is a problem at all.
    Anecdotal evidence is not objective, itís based on opinions and quite frankly, can be dismissed. Investigation, science, and fact is what we should base our views in. See, we have a member of the SBC right now who has taken part in the SBC for years. Why donít you ask CP what he would do in a similar situation. Do you think he would think it was okay? I really doubt it and thus the problem with anecdotes. You can make them say whatever you want, what is required here is scientific fact and well, none has really been produced.

    In other news, related news, Snoop dog apologized for his comments (or more accurately, a limited apology) to Gayle King. As I noted before in this thread, one common reaction which me too highlights is the reactions to a woman who has the audacity to speak out, against any perceived criticism which a rape allegation brings. So much so, that it is almost a universal.
    That doesnít deal with a word I said.

    What objective facts? The discussion breaks down, one side sees a problem, while the other side sees no problem at all!
    Nope, it breaks down to:

    One side is emotionally reacting and the other side wants objective facts.

    Youíve made your position quite clear, youíre emotionally reacting and donít want objective facts to get in the way of a good story. Iíve seen panic button approaches to solving problems that does nothing. Earlier in my career, the military ran into a problem with sexual assault among its ranks and hit the panic button and implemented changes. Guess what? The problem still exist and hardly has been affected because lo and behold, hitting the panic button doesnít work. Thatís why we need facts, not emotion. Anecdotes are emotion, not fact.

    Why am I still Catholic, even after all those scandals? "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" The Catholic Church certainly ignored the problem, staking out positions which ran through the instittion. But they have also prayerfully examined themselves and have since staked out a position, made a stand, a repentence if you will, which is a change in course, a change in attitude.
    And what are the objective facts? What are the changes? Can these changes work in a decentralized community?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  10. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Anecdotal evidence is not objective, itís based on opinions and quite frankly, can be dismissed. Investigation, science, and fact is what we should base our views in. See, we have a member of the SBC right now who has taken part in the SBC for years. Why donít you ask CP what he would do in a similar situation. Do you think he would think it was okay? I really doubt it and thus the problem with anecdotes. You can make them say whatever you want, what is required here is scientific fact and well, none has really been produced.



    That doesnít deal with a word I said.



    Nope, it breaks down to:

    One side is emotionally reacting and the other side wants objective facts.

    Youíve made your position quite clear, youíre emotionally reacting and donít want objective facts to get in the way of a good story. Iíve seen panic button approaches to solving problems that does nothing. Earlier in my career, the military ran into a problem with sexual assault among its ranks and hit the panic button and implemented changes. Guess what? The problem still exist and hardly has been affected because lo and behold, hitting the panic button doesnít work. Thatís why we need facts, not emotion. Anecdotes are emotion, not fact.



    And what are the objective facts? What are the changes? Can these changes work in a decentralized community?
    And you inadvertently pointed to the problem facing the church today: Some problems cannot be dismissed, the woman with two black eyes is an objective fact and reality that exists within the church. And any attempt to pretend that it is not a problem is precisely the mistake the Catholic Church made.

    You glibly dismiss the story which is a real life and objective example which centers on this discussion, and that ties back to the original OP of Rogue which started this thread. Snoop Dog is playing the role of the Christian pastors when confronted by such an allegation.

    The objective fact at the heart of the OP is that an abuse allegation was made, and what followed was found in the countless stories of the me too and church too stories. And those stories are of women who suffered abuse.

    And no great irony (!) is that what started out as a condemnation of the libs uneven response as hypocritical boils down to a couple hundred posts showing that Christians are guilty of precisely the thing which the OP skewered the secular libs for!

  11. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
  12. #230
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Irony at its finest. If you were 1/4th as smart as you think you are, youíd realize that conservative church =/= Patriarchical in nature or that Patriarchical comes in flavors and extremes that maybe all different, seems to escape your notice too.
    Also the fact that the vast majority of human societies throughout history and the world today are patriarchal, so it seems to be a bit of a case of confusing correlation with causation. It's not like we have a wealth of other cultures to study to judge their affect on the male/female dynamic.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
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