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Thread: RIP #MeToo

  1. #261
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    May 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Some emotion is fine in daily interactions and human contact. Emotion isn’t nearly as helpful in understanding where problems exist and how to solve these problems. While I see you’re still in holier than thou mode, you still haven’t addressed a single word I said. Hummm... I wonder why....

    I see you still don’t get it...

    Baptist communities tend to believe in local church autonomy.

    Meaning that there really is nothing a denomination, like the SBC, can do because they have no control in the daily affairs of different SBC churches. Is there something about this simple concept you can’t grasp? Is it beyond your understanding? The SBC can wag its finger all day long, nobody has to listen to a word they say.

    Can you read because ignoring problems is a pretty common human trait. Have you never heard of the bystander effect and similar sociology conditions? As I have also pointed out (and you keep ignoring), there really is nothing the Baptist community could do because they run independently from each other. Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

    Baptist don’t run the way you think they do. The SBC isn’t a central body capable of pressing broad or sweeping changes because the nature of the SBC is, local church anatomy. Do you seriously not understand this concept? Is this beyond your grasp?

    Yeah you do because you can’t grasp that most conservative churches are largely independently ran and operated with loose ties to each other. There’s no bishops, no elders, no governing body, just a loose collection of groups, sharing similar beliefs and theologies, but none has control over the other. This isn’t difficult to understand because in a centralized group, you only have to convince the central governing authorities, since there isn’t a central authority among many conservative Christian denominations, you have to convince tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million, to adopt your solutions. Good luck, you’ll need it. Hope you have tons of money and lots of time.

    Good luck, I hope you have a ton of cash, for traveling and lots of time off. You’ll need it.

    The RCC has a central authority. You don’t need to visit a few thousand Catholic Churches, you just need to convince the pope and archbishops. You obviously don’t understand the nature of how the Baptist or many similar denominations run and operate. Every church, is an island in itself that runs its own affairs. You need to get thousand of these islands onboard and well... good luck. You’ll need it.
    The Body of Christ is not a branch of the social science, your questions and comments do seem to treat it as such. One primary role of the church is pastoral, dealing with the souls entrusted to its care. Whether the example is of the solitary example of one woman (which is definitely and obviously not any evidence of a trend or a defective culture), or the numerous stories becoming public with church too (which does suggest that is is some "trend" and a definite cultural problem.

    The wider sociological studies are not unimportant, they are need to fine tune the direction of the response and whether progress is being made. But if there is a cultural problem, then the culture of the church needs to change such that social evils can be addressed, scandal avoided, and souls adequately ministered to.

    The Baptist community is not powerless to affect change once it is recognized that changes need to be instituted. It happened in the past, the political and social evil of segregation has been addressed even with the decentralizing tendency within the Baptist tradition, very few are overt supporters of segregated education. It took a decade for the Baptists to change course on abortion, realizing that it is not a "Catholic problem". Change is possible: community norms and standards are a very real and potent force, on abortion and segregation the church change was a change in community. Another primary role of the church is its communal function.

    It appears that you are unfamiliar with the Catholic Church, important and sweeping changes are ineffective when coming from the top down, there has to be a concurrent teaching from the bottom up coincident to change. The teaching authority does refer to the Pope, but even the ones who are great saints cannot teach without the rest of the church's teachers. The Catholic Church is hierarchical, but the center of the church is not the Pope, but the local churches in communion. The Church (and any church may lead), but getting the church's members to follow requires teaching. And within the decentralized Baptists, leaders, influencers, and elites may lead the way, but it takes teaching to turn minds. Another primary role of the church is its teaching function, both within and without (as salt and light to the world).

    My position is a recognition of what the church is and does, while keeping in mind its pastoral role, its communal function, and its teaching mandate. those three are universal across Christianity, even the decentralized SBC. My position is also based on the fact that it has become obvious that the problem does not reside in the specifics of theology, denomination, but it is cultural: the culture of the church needs to change.

    Reinhold Niebuhr wrote Moral Man, immoral Society which notes that men individually are quite often moral, but when they act in concert (as a group) there is a tendency to be immoral. That includes the church. The churches are very moral, of that I am sure. But they do act in a very immoral manner. That is the paradox at the heart of the issue.

  2. #262
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
    Wayne Township, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I assume this is sarcastic?
    Nuh-uh. I realized it might be taken as such, and thought about adding, "I'm serious"... but I didn't.

    I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.
    I don't know for sure that it is harmful. I think research suggests that it is, but that is not my primary concern. Christians should not dismiss the possibility, but Christians should primarily try to understand what Scripture teaches and follow that. If it is true that Scripture prescribes patriarchy -- if the best tools of linguistics, philology, history, culture, literary analysis, theology, etc. -- determine that is the intent of NT teaching, then that is what Christians should try to practice, regardless of what contemporary psychological and sociological research says.

    In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
    I don't believe it is "clear," certainly not in any unambiguous way, that Scripture assigns leadership of the home to the paterfamilias. IMO, several of the relevant passages themselves suggest otherwise.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

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    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

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