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  1. #251
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    What do you think the whole me too, church too thing was all about? It was about women who were fed up with inaction.
    According to polls, there is anywhere from 60 million to 100 million Americans that attend church services weekly, out of these, at least 30 million are women, so we should obviously expect something just due to sheer volume. Just because something is on the TV or internet doesnít mean itís as big of a problem as you think.

    You asked for a concrete example, and I gave one: Two black eyes. Nothing emotional about that, it is a sign. The fact is, that a women with two black eyes could not spur a pastor io action. And when you read the me too church too stories, that is not an islated example at all.
    That is a classic emotional appeal that doesnít tell me:

    - the extent of the issue
    - the cause of the issue
    - the solution, to the issue
    - the implementation of the solution

    Iíve done safety communities before. Complaining about a problem and offering no solution, solves nothing. Now tell me the solution, do you even have one or is this just a way for you to bash non Catholics and act as though the RCC is perfect?

    It is also a pastoral problem, as the common reaction to a victim of outing the problem is that the victim is often ostracized, not the victimizer. Rachel Denhollander is a famous example.
    Yet, youíve heard stories around here of victims, of domestic abuse, given help and care by their church, including help leaving their abuser, with several men and women saying domestic abuse is never okay and women should leave. We can pass anecdotes all day that say whatever we want to hear, it doesnít tell me a thing.

    There are many different approaches, but all those fixit plans are useless if one cannot recognize the problem which needs to be fixed. Do you think pastoral problems follow a flow chart of problem solving? Which is why pastor is a calling, requiring special vocation and training.
    You havenít told me the extent of the issue and have flat ignored others telling you the opposite with their own anecdotes. Maybe you should try objective facts vs emotional pleading.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  2. #252
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    According to polls, there is anywhere from 60 million to 100 million Americans that attend church services weekly, out of these, at least 30 million are women, so we should obviously expect something just due to sheer volume. Just because something is on the TV or internet doesn’t mean it’s as big of a problem as you think.



    That is a classic emotional appeal that doesn’t tell me:

    - the extent of the issue
    - the cause of the issue
    - the solution, to the issue
    - the implementation of the solution

    I’ve done safety communities before. Complaining about a problem and offering no solution, solves nothing. Now tell me the solution, do you even have one or is this just a way for you to bash non Catholics and act as though the RCC is perfect?



    Yet, you’ve heard stories around here of victims, of domestic abuse, given help and care by their church, including help leaving their abuser, with several men and women saying domestic abuse is never okay and women should leave. We can pass anecdotes all day that say whatever we want to hear, it doesn’t tell me a thing.



    You haven’t told me the extent of the issue and have flat ignored others telling you the opposite with their own anecdotes. Maybe you should try objective facts vs emotional pleading.
    I guess pastoral responsiblity counts less that the statistical analyses, the theoretic constructs and theologies. A pastor confronted with the woman with two black eyes shouldn't need those things: the soul in need and in need of healing ought to be able to find refuge within the church. Church too recounts tale after tale of hard examples of the church's failures in its role of ministering to souls in its care. Emotion is not a handicap to Christianity, nor to the pastoral care of the flock.

    Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.

    Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately

  3. #253
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    I completely agree with this. If Scripture does endorse patriarchy, that is the practice Christians should follow, even if it turns out that the best scientific studies unequivocally show it is harmful.
    I assume this is sarcastic?

    I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Like other egalitarians, I do not believe "that the leadership role of [man] was ordained from the beginning." I believe equal partnership was the original created state, and that male-dominated hierarchy is an artifact of the Fall. I believe some NT passages *can* support patriarchy, but that on the whole, the NT shows there is to be no sex-based hierarchy in the home or in the church.
    In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

  4. #254
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Biblically there is certainly a very solid case for equality of value and worth between men and women, just as there is a very clear case for a difference in roles and responsibilities within their marriage relationship. Equal (in value), different (in responsibility and God-given duty to each other in marriage).
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

  5. #255
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I guess pastoral responsiblity counts less that the statistical analyses, the theoretic constructs and theologies. A pastor confronted with the woman with two black eyes shouldn't need those things: the soul in need and in need of healing ought to be able to find refuge within the church. Church too recounts tale after tale of hard examples of the church's failures in its role of ministering to souls in its care. Emotion is not a handicap to Christianity, nor to the pastoral care of the flock.
    Stop with your self righteous, holier than thou, because stats are important to understand how widespread a problem is and what solutions work best. Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy for a reason, stop using it.

    Why do you assume that it is bashing non catholics? I have repeatedly noted that the similarities between the CC and nCC responses.
    And thatís an ignorant opinion that I have corrected you on, countless times, and youíve ignored it. What part of,ĒBaptist churches and the RCC function differentlyĒ do you not grasp? Baptist churches, for the most part, function independently from each other and may have no clue what is going on at the Baptist church a mile down the road. In the RCCís case, there is no way upper leadership could not be aware of the problem because the RCC functions in a similar matter to a government. What part of this do you not grasp? This isnít hard to figure out, there is very little that an independent group can do to another one.

    Some churches being spot on does not that the church's response is acceptable across the board. It didn't fly with many when the topic of was directed at Catholics, with good reason. There was no theoretical critical mass of victims needed before a church wide response would be needed. One was too much, and a pattern of failures was definitely unacceptable. Church too has documented the pattern of failures to act and act appropriately
    Do you have a massive problem with reading? How do you implement a change, across a group that runs independently and you have zero control over? Is this concept difficult for you to grasp or do you simply not bother to read?
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Stop with your self righteous, holier than thou, because stats are important to understand how widespread a problem is and what solutions work best. Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy for a reason, stop using it.
    That is precisely why Beth Moore has rocketed to such heights of popularity, what you dismiss as emotionalism is seen as prudent and practical pastoral response. Pastoral response is largely independent of denominational theological differences.

    And that¬ís an ignorant opinion that I have corrected you on, countless times, and you¬íve ignored it. What part of,¬ĒBaptist churches and the RCC function differently¬Ē do you not grasp? Baptist churches, for the most part, function independently from each other and may have no clue what is going on at the Baptist church a mile down the road. In the RCC¬ís case, there is no way upper leadership could not be aware of the problem because the RCC functions in a similar matter to a government. What part of this do you not grasp? This isn¬ít hard to figure out, there is very little that an independent group can do to another one.
    Baptist churches and the RCC do function differently. And schools function differently than football programs. Gymnastic committees function differently than churches. But there is one thing they have in common, which was revealed by me too and church too: Similarities in response to abuse allegations.

    Since so many groups react similarly, then one conclusion that could be drawn is that there are some elements of the culture which affect such a response. That fact is like the woman with two black eyes, the single example, except church too showed that it is not isolated in any way.

    The only way Baptists could admit to not knowing that there was a problem was if the problem was purposefully swept under the rug, ignored, or accepted as a normal part of church life. There is something that an independent group can do, even the decentralized group like SBC as well as independent churches, admit that there is a problem in existence and plan for response.

    Do you have a massive problem with reading? How do you implement a change, across a group that runs independently and you have zero control over? Is this concept difficult for you to grasp or do you simply not bother to read?
    No, I don't have a reading problem. Various groups will have differing plans, some may even be more effective than others. But the first step is admitting that there is a problem, and it might not just be a problem in other churches.

    A massive first step is applying the age old and well accept pastoral responses. These are not system wide, but at the organic and grass roots level, where individual Christians meet in worship and have a pastor. Again returning to the example of the woman with two black eyes: approach the woman as a soul in need, not as a threat to get get rid of. That, in and of itself would have nipped much of the problem in the bud. And it would have negated the need for, and changes demanded by church too women forcing themselves on church hierarchy in ways which are unprecedented.

    The example of the RCC and sex abuse: Critics on both sides of the Tiber noted that an appropriate pastoral response would have nipped it in the bud, prevented a proliferation of cases. Which is part of the reason that hierarchy has been drawn in here. So some of the Protestant groups may not have similar hierarchy, in many cases there is some hierarchy.

  7. #257
    What's that? lilpixieofterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    That is precisely why Beth Moore has rocketed to such heights of popularity, what you dismiss as emotionalism is seen as prudent and practical pastoral response. Pastoral response is largely independent of denominational theological differences.
    Some emotion is fine in daily interactions and human contact. Emotion isnít nearly as helpful in understanding where problems exist and how to solve these problems. While I see youíre still in holier than thou mode, you still havenít addressed a single word I said. Hummm... I wonder why....

    Baptist churches and the RCC do function differently. And schools function differently than football programs. Gymnastic committees function differently than churches. But there is one thing they have in common, which was revealed by me too and church too: Similarities in response to abuse allegations.
    I see you still donít get it...

    Baptist communities tend to believe in local church autonomy.

    Meaning that there really is nothing a denomination, like the SBC, can do because they have no control in the daily affairs of different SBC churches. Is there something about this simple concept you canít grasp? Is it beyond your understanding? The SBC can wag its finger all day long, nobody has to listen to a word they say.

    Since so many groups react similarly, then one conclusion that could be drawn is that there are some elements of the culture which affect such a response. That fact is like the woman with two black eyes, the single example, except church too showed that it is not isolated in any way.
    Can you read because ignoring problems is a pretty common human trait. Have you never heard of the bystander effect and similar sociology conditions? As I have also pointed out (and you keep ignoring), there really is nothing the Baptist community could do because they run independently from each other. Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

    The only way Baptists could admit to not knowing that there was a problem was if the problem was purposefully swept under the rug, ignored, or accepted as a normal part of church life. There is something that an independent group can do, even the decentralized group like SBC as well as independent churches, admit that there is a problem in existence and plan for response.
    Baptist donít run the way you think they do. The SBC isnít a central body capable of pressing broad or sweeping changes because the nature of the SBC is, local church anatomy. Do you seriously not understand this concept? Is this beyond your grasp?

    No, I don't have a reading problem. Various groups will have differing plans, some may even be more effective than others. But the first step is admitting that there is a problem, and it might not just be a problem in other churches.
    Yeah you do because you canít grasp that most conservative churches are largely independently ran and operated with loose ties to each other. Thereís no bishops, no elders, no governing body, just a loose collection of groups, sharing similar beliefs and theologies, but none has control over the other. This isnít difficult to understand because in a centralized group, you only have to convince the central governing authorities, since there isnít a central authority among many conservative Christian denominations, you have to convince tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million, to adopt your solutions. Good luck, youíll need it. Hope you have tons of money and lots of time.

    A massive first step is applying the age old and well accept pastoral responses. These are not system wide, but at the organic and grass roots level, where individual Christians meet in worship and have a pastor. Again returning to the example of the woman with two black eyes: approach the woman as a soul in need, not as a threat to get get rid of. That, in and of itself would have nipped much of the problem in the bud. And it would have negated the need for, and changes demanded by church too women forcing themselves on church hierarchy in ways which are unprecedented.
    Good luck, I hope you have a ton of cash, for traveling and lots of time off. Youíll need it.

    The example of the RCC and sex abuse: Critics on both sides of the Tiber noted that an appropriate pastoral response would have nipped it in the bud, prevented a proliferation of cases. Which is part of the reason that hierarchy has been drawn in here. So some of the Protestant groups may not have similar hierarchy, in many cases there is some hierarchy.
    The RCC has a central authority. You donít need to visit a few thousand Catholic Churches, you just need to convince the pope and archbishops. You obviously donít understand the nature of how the Baptist or many similar denominations run and operate. Every church, is an island in itself that runs its own affairs. You need to get thousand of these islands onboard and well... good luck. Youíll need it.
    Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-14-2020 at 11:32 AM.
    "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
    GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

  8. #258
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    I assume this is sarcastic?

    I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.


    In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
    In that first part he appears to be saying that even if modern standards were showing patriarchy to be definitely wrong a Christian should still follow the Bible, if the Bible does indeed teach a patriarchal model. Basically, a Christian should follow the Bible's teaching regardless of what modern cultural institutions and pressures exist.

  9. #259
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVel View Post
    Biblically there is certainly a very solid case for equality of value and worth between men and women, just as there is a very clear case for a difference in roles and responsibilities within their marriage relationship. Equal (in value), different (in responsibility and God-given duty to each other in marriage).
    "Equal in value, different in roles" is pretty much verbatim the "complementarian" slogan, often accompanied by the assertion that egalitarians believe that except for plumbing, there are no differences at all between the sexes.

    In response, egalitarians often note that the "complementarian" view is reminiscent of the old "separate but equal" mantra of the Civil Rights era and the famous "some are more equal than others" line from Animal Farm. More practically, we note that the differing "roles" almost always boil down to matters of hierarchy of authority.

    Conversely, it has been documented that egalitarians were the first to use "complementary" (as opposed to indistinguishable) in regard to the relationship of the sexes. Most of us understand that there are real differences between men and women in terms of psychology at least, not just physiology. Our view is that Scripture does not support the idea that those differences preclude women from any positions of authority that men can hold. This view is encapsulated in the title of the book, Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  10. #260
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    "Equal in value, different in roles" is pretty much verbatim the "complementarian" slogan, often accompanied by the assertion that egalitarians believe that except for plumbing, there are no differences at all between the sexes.

    In response, egalitarians often note that the "complementarian" view is reminiscent of the old "separate but equal" mantra of the Civil Rights era and the famous "some are more equal than others" line from Animal Farm. More practically, we note that the differing "roles" almost always boil down to matters of hierarchy of authority.

    Conversely, it has been documented that egalitarians were the first to use "complementary" (as opposed to indistinguishable) in regard to the relationship of the sexes. Most of us understand that there are real differences between men and women in terms of psychology at least, not just physiology. Our view is that Scripture does not support the idea that those differences preclude women from any positions of authority that men can hold. This view is encapsulated in the title of the book, Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy.

    Interesting. You'll note that I was specifically talking about responsibilities within a marriage relationship.

    In general I think men are better suited to leadership roles, partly due to psychology and partly due to societal attitudes. That doesn't preclude women from leadership. I've heard some great sermons from women.
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

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