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  • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
    Stop with your self righteous, holier than thou, because stats are important to understand how widespread a problem is and what solutions work best. Appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy for a reason, stop using it.
    That is precisely why Beth Moore has rocketed to such heights of popularity, what you dismiss as emotionalism is seen as prudent and practical pastoral response. Pastoral response is largely independent of denominational theological differences.

    And that’s an ignorant opinion that I have corrected you on, countless times, and you’ve ignored it. What part of,”Baptist churches and the RCC function differently” do you not grasp? Baptist churches, for the most part, function independently from each other and may have no clue what is going on at the Baptist church a mile down the road. In the RCC’s case, there is no way upper leadership could not be aware of the problem because the RCC functions in a similar matter to a government. What part of this do you not grasp? This isn’t hard to figure out, there is very little that an independent group can do to another one.
    Baptist churches and the RCC do function differently. And schools function differently than football programs. Gymnastic committees function differently than churches. But there is one thing they have in common, which was revealed by me too and church too: Similarities in response to abuse allegations.

    Since so many groups react similarly, then one conclusion that could be drawn is that there are some elements of the culture which affect such a response. That fact is like the woman with two black eyes, the single example, except church too showed that it is not isolated in any way.

    The only way Baptists could admit to not knowing that there was a problem was if the problem was purposefully swept under the rug, ignored, or accepted as a normal part of church life. There is something that an independent group can do, even the decentralized group like SBC as well as independent churches, admit that there is a problem in existence and plan for response.

    Do you have a massive problem with reading? How do you implement a change, across a group that runs independently and you have zero control over? Is this concept difficult for you to grasp or do you simply not bother to read?
    No, I don't have a reading problem. Various groups will have differing plans, some may even be more effective than others. But the first step is admitting that there is a problem, and it might not just be a problem in other churches.

    A massive first step is applying the age old and well accept pastoral responses. These are not system wide, but at the organic and grass roots level, where individual Christians meet in worship and have a pastor. Again returning to the example of the woman with two black eyes: approach the woman as a soul in need, not as a threat to get get rid of. That, in and of itself would have nipped much of the problem in the bud. And it would have negated the need for, and changes demanded by church too women forcing themselves on church hierarchy in ways which are unprecedented.

    The example of the RCC and sex abuse: Critics on both sides of the Tiber noted that an appropriate pastoral response would have nipped it in the bud, prevented a proliferation of cases. Which is part of the reason that hierarchy has been drawn in here. So some of the Protestant groups may not have similar hierarchy, in many cases there is some hierarchy.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      That is precisely why Beth Moore has rocketed to such heights of popularity, what you dismiss as emotionalism is seen as prudent and practical pastoral response. Pastoral response is largely independent of denominational theological differences.
      Some emotion is fine in daily interactions and human contact. Emotion isn’t nearly as helpful in understanding where problems exist and how to solve these problems. While I see you’re still in holier than thou mode, you still haven’t addressed a single word I said. Hummm... I wonder why....

      Baptist churches and the RCC do function differently. And schools function differently than football programs. Gymnastic committees function differently than churches. But there is one thing they have in common, which was revealed by me too and church too: Similarities in response to abuse allegations.
      I see you still don’t get it...

      Baptist communities tend to believe in local church autonomy.

      Meaning that there really is nothing a denomination, like the SBC, can do because they have no control in the daily affairs of different SBC churches. Is there something about this simple concept you can’t grasp? Is it beyond your understanding? The SBC can wag its finger all day long, nobody has to listen to a word they say.

      Since so many groups react similarly, then one conclusion that could be drawn is that there are some elements of the culture which affect such a response. That fact is like the woman with two black eyes, the single example, except church too showed that it is not isolated in any way.
      Can you read because ignoring problems is a pretty common human trait. Have you never heard of the bystander effect and similar sociology conditions? As I have also pointed out (and you keep ignoring), there really is nothing the Baptist community could do because they run independently from each other. Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?

      The only way Baptists could admit to not knowing that there was a problem was if the problem was purposefully swept under the rug, ignored, or accepted as a normal part of church life. There is something that an independent group can do, even the decentralized group like SBC as well as independent churches, admit that there is a problem in existence and plan for response.
      Baptist don’t run the way you think they do. The SBC isn’t a central body capable of pressing broad or sweeping changes because the nature of the SBC is, local church anatomy. Do you seriously not understand this concept? Is this beyond your grasp?

      No, I don't have a reading problem. Various groups will have differing plans, some may even be more effective than others. But the first step is admitting that there is a problem, and it might not just be a problem in other churches.
      Yeah you do because you can’t grasp that most conservative churches are largely independently ran and operated with loose ties to each other. There’s no bishops, no elders, no governing body, just a loose collection of groups, sharing similar beliefs and theologies, but none has control over the other. This isn’t difficult to understand because in a centralized group, you only have to convince the central governing authorities, since there isn’t a central authority among many conservative Christian denominations, you have to convince tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million, to adopt your solutions. Good luck, you’ll need it. Hope you have tons of money and lots of time.

      A massive first step is applying the age old and well accept pastoral responses. These are not system wide, but at the organic and grass roots level, where individual Christians meet in worship and have a pastor. Again returning to the example of the woman with two black eyes: approach the woman as a soul in need, not as a threat to get get rid of. That, in and of itself would have nipped much of the problem in the bud. And it would have negated the need for, and changes demanded by church too women forcing themselves on church hierarchy in ways which are unprecedented.
      Good luck, I hope you have a ton of cash, for traveling and lots of time off. You’ll need it.

      The example of the RCC and sex abuse: Critics on both sides of the Tiber noted that an appropriate pastoral response would have nipped it in the bud, prevented a proliferation of cases. Which is part of the reason that hierarchy has been drawn in here. So some of the Protestant groups may not have similar hierarchy, in many cases there is some hierarchy.
      The RCC has a central authority. You don’t need to visit a few thousand Catholic Churches, you just need to convince the pope and archbishops. You obviously don’t understand the nature of how the Baptist or many similar denominations run and operate. Every church, is an island in itself that runs its own affairs. You need to get thousand of these islands onboard and well... good luck. You’ll need it.
      Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-14-2020, 12:32 PM.
      "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
      GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        I assume this is sarcastic?

        I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.


        In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
        In that first part he appears to be saying that even if modern standards were showing patriarchy to be definitely wrong a Christian should still follow the Bible, if the Bible does indeed teach a patriarchal model. Basically, a Christian should follow the Bible's teaching regardless of what modern cultural institutions and pressures exist.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
          Biblically there is certainly a very solid case for equality of value and worth between men and women, just as there is a very clear case for a difference in roles and responsibilities within their marriage relationship. Equal (in value), different (in responsibility and God-given duty to each other in marriage).
          "Equal in value, different in roles" is pretty much verbatim the "complementarian" slogan, often accompanied by the assertion that egalitarians believe that except for plumbing, there are no differences at all between the sexes.

          In response, egalitarians often note that the "complementarian" view is reminiscent of the old "separate but equal" mantra of the Civil Rights era and the famous "some are more equal than others" line from Animal Farm. More practically, we note that the differing "roles" almost always boil down to matters of hierarchy of authority.

          Conversely, it has been documented that egalitarians were the first to use "complementary" (as opposed to indistinguishable) in regard to the relationship of the sexes. Most of us understand that there are real differences between men and women in terms of psychology at least, not just physiology. Our view is that Scripture does not support the idea that those differences preclude women from any positions of authority that men can hold. This view is encapsulated in the title of the book, Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            "Equal in value, different in roles" is pretty much verbatim the "complementarian" slogan, often accompanied by the assertion that egalitarians believe that except for plumbing, there are no differences at all between the sexes.

            In response, egalitarians often note that the "complementarian" view is reminiscent of the old "separate but equal" mantra of the Civil Rights era and the famous "some are more equal than others" line from Animal Farm. More practically, we note that the differing "roles" almost always boil down to matters of hierarchy of authority.

            Conversely, it has been documented that egalitarians were the first to use "complementary" (as opposed to indistinguishable) in regard to the relationship of the sexes. Most of us understand that there are real differences between men and women in terms of psychology at least, not just physiology. Our view is that Scripture does not support the idea that those differences preclude women from any positions of authority that men can hold. This view is encapsulated in the title of the book, Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy.

            Interesting. You'll note that I was specifically talking about responsibilities within a marriage relationship.

            In general I think men are better suited to leadership roles, partly due to psychology and partly due to societal attitudes. That doesn't preclude women from leadership. I've heard some great sermons from women.
            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
              Some emotion is fine in daily interactions and human contact. Emotion isnÂ’t nearly as helpful in understanding where problems exist and how to solve these problems. While I see youÂ’re still in holier than thou mode, you still havenÂ’t addressed a single word I said. Hummm... I wonder why....



              I see you still donÂ’t get it...

              Baptist communities tend to believe in local church autonomy.

              Meaning that there really is nothing a denomination, like the SBC, can do because they have no control in the daily affairs of different SBC churches. Is there something about this simple concept you canÂ’t grasp? Is it beyond your understanding? The SBC can wag its finger all day long, nobody has to listen to a word they say.



              Can you read because ignoring problems is a pretty common human trait. Have you never heard of the bystander effect and similar sociology conditions? As I have also pointed out (and you keep ignoring), there really is nothing the Baptist community could do because they run independently from each other. Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp?



              Baptist donÂ’t run the way you think they do. The SBC isnÂ’t a central body capable of pressing broad or sweeping changes because the nature of the SBC is, local church anatomy. Do you seriously not understand this concept? Is this beyond your grasp?



              Yeah you do because you canÂ’t grasp that most conservative churches are largely independently ran and operated with loose ties to each other. ThereÂ’s no bishops, no elders, no governing body, just a loose collection of groups, sharing similar beliefs and theologies, but none has control over the other. This isnÂ’t difficult to understand because in a centralized group, you only have to convince the central governing authorities, since there isnÂ’t a central authority among many conservative Christian denominations, you have to convince tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, maybe even a million, to adopt your solutions. Good luck, youÂ’ll need it. Hope you have tons of money and lots of time.



              Good luck, I hope you have a ton of cash, for traveling and lots of time off. YouÂ’ll need it.



              The RCC has a central authority. You donÂ’t need to visit a few thousand Catholic Churches, you just need to convince the pope and archbishops. You obviously donÂ’t understand the nature of how the Baptist or many similar denominations run and operate. Every church, is an island in itself that runs its own affairs. You need to get thousand of these islands onboard and well... good luck. YouÂ’ll need it.
              The Body of Christ is not a branch of the social science, your questions and comments do seem to treat it as such. One primary role of the church is pastoral, dealing with the souls entrusted to its care. Whether the example is of the solitary example of one woman (which is definitely and obviously not any evidence of a trend or a defective culture), or the numerous stories becoming public with church too (which does suggest that is is some "trend" and a definite cultural problem.

              The wider sociological studies are not unimportant, they are need to fine tune the direction of the response and whether progress is being made. But if there is a cultural problem, then the culture of the church needs to change such that social evils can be addressed, scandal avoided, and souls adequately ministered to.

              The Baptist community is not powerless to affect change once it is recognized that changes need to be instituted. It happened in the past, the political and social evil of segregation has been addressed even with the decentralizing tendency within the Baptist tradition, very few are overt supporters of segregated education. It took a decade for the Baptists to change course on abortion, realizing that it is not a "Catholic problem". Change is possible: community norms and standards are a very real and potent force, on abortion and segregation the church change was a change in community. Another primary role of the church is its communal function.

              It appears that you are unfamiliar with the Catholic Church, important and sweeping changes are ineffective when coming from the top down, there has to be a concurrent teaching from the bottom up coincident to change. The teaching authority does refer to the Pope, but even the ones who are great saints cannot teach without the rest of the church's teachers. The Catholic Church is hierarchical, but the center of the church is not the Pope, but the local churches in communion. The Church (and any church may lead), but getting the church's members to follow requires teaching. And within the decentralized Baptists, leaders, influencers, and elites may lead the way, but it takes teaching to turn minds. Another primary role of the church is its teaching function, both within and without (as salt and light to the world).

              My position is a recognition of what the church is and does, while keeping in mind its pastoral role, its communal function, and its teaching mandate. those three are universal across Christianity, even the decentralized SBC. My position is also based on the fact that it has become obvious that the problem does not reside in the specifics of theology, denomination, but it is cultural: the culture of the church needs to change.

              Reinhold Niebuhr wrote Moral Man, immoral Society which notes that men individually are quite often moral, but when they act in concert (as a group) there is a tendency to be immoral. That includes the church. The churches are very moral, of that I am sure. But they do act in a very immoral manner. That is the paradox at the heart of the issue.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I assume this is sarcastic?
                Nuh-uh. I realized it might be taken as such, and thought about adding, "I'm serious"... but I didn't.


                I disagree with your implication that a patriarchal system is harmful in and of itself, just like scriptural exhortations to discipline one's children are not harmful in and of themselves. A patriarchal system is only harmful if it is not practiced according to scripture which calls the man to be a servant leader and not a domineering totalitarian.
                I don't know for sure that it is harmful. I think research suggests that it is, but that is not my primary concern. Christians should not dismiss the possibility, but Christians should primarily try to understand what Scripture teaches and follow that. If it is true that Scripture prescribes patriarchy -- if the best tools of linguistics, philology, history, culture, literary analysis, theology, etc. -- determine that is the intent of NT teaching, then that is what Christians should try to practice, regardless of what contemporary psychological and sociological research says.

                In spiritual matters, yes, there is no distinction between male and female, free and slave, governors and the governed, and so on. But in practical matters of managing a household, or running a church, scripture clearly places the burden of leadership on the man. Now you can argue that that was just a product of the culture in which the Bible was written, but then I wonder how many other passages in the Bible can be dismissed as anachronistic and no longer relevant to modern culture? Frankly, that's not a place I'm willing to go.
                I don't believe it is "clear," certainly not in any unambiguous way, that Scripture assigns leadership of the home to the paterfamilias. IMO, several of the relevant passages themselves suggest otherwise.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Federalist.

                Nationalist Christian.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                Justice for Matthew Perna!

                Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                Comment

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