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  • #31
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    You seem to have misunderstood what I was asking. You claim that "many conservative churches adopt policies and attitudes that encourage [the abuse of women] rather than deter it". I have no doubt that you can point to isolated examples, but that isn't what I asked. I'm not seeing anything here to support your assertion that this is the case in "many conservatives churches". Of course now you're subtly moving the goalposts by claiming that it's only true "in general" and then, apparently, only if people misunderstand and misapply certain Biblical teachings.

    My own church, for example, holds to a fairly strict interpretation of scripture, including the admonition that wives should submit to their husbands, and that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church, and our pastors and deacons are exclusively male with women serving in a support role, and I can tell you for a fact that this has not led to women in the congregation being abused, so it's not an inevitable outcome like you imply.
    That has not been what I have observed at similar churches. It is fair to argue that when abuse happens it is 'misapplication' of the intent of the same scriptures you mention. But it is also naive to think that those same teachings do not in the end create an environment where abuse is not only more likely but inevitable. Indeed they arise within and out of cultures where spousal abuse was common and for their day were in fact progressive.

    But for simlar reasons ultimately that we disagree on so many issues, one needs to recognize it is human nature to abuse power. And an emphasis on the submission of women to their husbands and male church authority creates an environment where an abusive personality can be unleashed rather than restrained. And it is something I have observed rather frequently in my years attending mostly conservative congregations. And it is in part my observation of that reality that has moved me away from that more rigid reading of those texts.

    And I would hazard a guess your belief it has not producedthe sort of result I'm talking about even in your own congregation is likely mistaken.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 11:01 AM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      That has not been what I have observed at similar churches. It is fair to argue that when abuse happens it is 'misapplication' of the intent of the same scriptures you mention. But it is also naive to think that those same teachings do not in the end create an environment where abuse is not only more likely but inevitable. Indeed they arise within and out of cultures where spousal abuse was common and for their day were in fact progressive.

      But for simlar reasons ultimately that we disagree on so many issues, one needs to recognize it is human nature to abuse power. And an emphasis on the submission of women to their husbands and male church authority creates an environment where an abusive personality can be unleashed rather than restrained. And it is something I have observed rather frequently in my years attending mostly conservative congregations. And it is in part my observation of that reality that has moved me away from that more rigid reading of those texts.

      And I would hazard a guess your belief it has not producedthe sort of result I'm talking about even in your own congregation is likely mistaken.
      Of course you think I'm mistaken, because you like to beg the question rather than admit you could be wrong, but trust me when I say I know my own congregation far better than you.

      And you still haven't provided anything to support your blanket assertion that abuse of women is encouraged (even if inadvertently) in "many conservative churches", as if it's something common and widespread.
      Last edited by Mountain Man; 02-03-2020, 11:24 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Of course you think I'm mistaken, because you like to beg the question rather than admit you could be wrong, but trust me when I say I know my own congregation far better than you.

        And you still haven't provided anything to support your blanket assertion that abuse of women is encouraged (even if inadvertently) in "many conservative churches", as if it's something common and widespread.
        It looks like a strawman to me. I read through his link and found nothing to indicate that husbands are free to abuse their wives and wives just need to shut up and take it. When you have to debate a caricature of your opponents arguments and beliefs, it’s a sure sign you got nothing.
        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          It looks like a strawman to me. I read through his link and found nothing to indicate that husbands are free to abuse their wives and wives just need to shut up and take it. When you have to debate a caricature of your opponents arguments and beliefs, it’s a sure sign you got nothing.
          I don't doubt it happens. I was just curious if he could support his implication that it's common and even inevitable in "many conservative churches". It seems he can't despite his breezy confidence that it must be so.
          Last edited by Mountain Man; 02-03-2020, 01:08 PM.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I don't doubt it happens. I was just curious if he could support his implication that it's common and even inevitable in "many conservative churches". It seems he can't despite his breezy confidence that it must be so.
            Almost anything can be made for justification of a person seeking to abuse others. Proving it’s a forgone conclusion is another matter entirely.
            "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
            GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              I don't doubt it happens. I was just curious if he could support his implication that it's common and even inevitable in "many conservative churches". It seems he can't despite his breezy confidence that it must be so.
              You k how, you really are an abusive character yourself. I could provide many direct examples of situations I know about or have known about. But that falls prey to the 'anecdotal evidence' critique. I gave an example of a popular christian teacher whose teachings on women have led to some fairly well documented problems. But of course that is dismissed as well. So what are you looking for MM? Examples of theology that results in or stems from abusive cultural archetypes. Or specific examples where this sort of teaching has encouraged abuse?

              As I said in my first reply to you, these teachings properly balance and implemented by stable men of character do not necessarily lead to abuse. But they do and can provide an environment were immature or naturally abusive personalities can find justification for abusive actions.

              there is the other element where the adoption of practical limitations in a culture where women were uneducated and considered not much more than property are not appropriate mechanisms in our own culture where women are highly educated and capable leaders throughout.
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 06:18 PM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                You k how, you really are an abusive character yourself. I could provide many direct examples of situations I know about or have known about. But that falls prey to the 'anecdotal evidence' critique. I gave an example of a popular christian teacher whose teachings on women have led to some fairly well documented problems. But of course that is dismissed as well. So what are you looking for MM? Examples of theology that results in or stems from abusive cultural archetypes. Or specific examples where this sort of teaching has encouraged abuse?

                As I said in my first reply to you, these teachings properly balance and implemented by stable men of character do not necessarily lead to abuse. But they do and can provide an environment were immature or naturally abusive personalities can find justification for abusive actions.

                there is the other element where the adoption of practical limitations in a culture where women were uneducated and considered not much more than property are not appropriate mechanisms in our own culture where women are highly educated and capable leaders throughout.
                Didn’t you ‘ignore me’ for these sort of personal attacks? Keep it classy.
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  So what are you looking for MM?
                  Given your initial confident declaration (a confidence which seems to have quickly waned) that this is prevalent in conservative churches, I thought maybe you had some studies or statistics or other objective evidence, but apparently you don't.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Given your initial confident declaration (a confidence which seems to have quickly waned) that this is prevalent in conservative churches, I thought maybe you had some studies or statistics or other objective evidence, but apparently you don't.
                    My confidence has not waned, but you have in typical fashion played your little games and tried to divert the conversation away from reality.

                    The simple fact is conservative christian churches often find themselves implementing or encouraging behaviors that result in abuse of women. When a pastor tells a man that his wife should submit to him, it creates the opportunity for abuse, especially if she does not. When churches create policies where gifted women are not respected or allowed to teach classes with men in them, you diminish them. When women are told to submit to an abusive husband and so win them with their pure nature, you force abuse upon them (or church censure) these things and others have been associated with the afore mentioned piper and churches that have based their policies on these issues on his teachings.

                    And there a plenty of other examples, both in type or form. And not by any means limited to Piper or other popular christian teachers.
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 08:41 PM.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      The simple fact is conservative christian churches often find themselves implementing or encouraging behaviors that result in abuse of women.
                      As the saying goes, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I've gone to conservative churches all my life, and I've never seen the kinds of behavior you describe ever encouraged or even tolerated. If this is commonplace at churches you've attended them I have to question your choice of churches.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                        Didn’t you ‘ignore me’ for these sort of personal attacks? Keep it classy.
                        Oh, he's happy to dish it out, but beware of the crocodile tears and cries of "Woe is me!" if the little hypocrite is ever asked to take it.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          As the saying goes, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I've gone to conservative churches all my life, and I've never seen the kinds of behavior you describe ever encouraged or even tolerated. If this is commonplace at churches you've attended them I have to question your choice of churches.
                          I said that conservative churches often create environments that are conducive to abuse. And then I gave you a direct example of a popular Christian leader whose teachings on ESS directly encourage abusive relationships between men and women. You dismissed that evidence without discussion. That was your doing, not mine.

                          In fact, you've hand waved away or cut from every post any information that would lead to discussion.

                          The simple truth is any system that creates a power class and a subservient class will result in abuse. It can do no else because it is human nature to abuse power.

                          Patrarchical cultures tend to abuse women. Women are second class citizens. They have little or no voice and must do as the men say.

                          This is the system outlined in scripture if you read it without understanding and accounting for the culture in which it was written. And most conservative churches adopt those guidelines. Women cant be teachers of the congregation as a whole, they cant be elders or pastors, in some they cant even be deacons. The are relegated to service roles and taking care of children. In piper's world a women who teaches a sunday school class must have a man who has authority over her present when she teaches.its all very primitive, and very demeaning to women.

                          Women have been second class citizens for most of the time in our own culture as well.

                          Conservative churches hold onto those same patrarchical customs and reap the same side effects: The marginalization of women and an environment where women can suffer various forms of abuse without recourse within the church itself.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Of course you think I'm mistaken, because you like to beg the question rather than admit you could be wrong, but trust me when I say I know my own congregation far better than you.

                            And you still haven't provided anything to support your blanket assertion that abuse of women is encouraged (even if inadvertently) in "many conservative churches", as if it's something common and widespread.
                            When a man is told his wife should submit to him, it creates an environment where abuse is more likely. She is now 'wrong' if she challenges his decisions, or refuses to do what he demands. Different men will react at different levels to that circumstance or will insist on this 'submission' with different intensities, but when the expectation is that the wife will do what the man says, it is a very different dynamic than the environment where the two work it out together and come to a mutual decision that respects the needs and desires of both. The former encourages abuse. The latter does not.
                            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-03-2020, 11:28 PM.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              It looks like a strawman to me. I read through his link and found nothing to indicate that husbands are free to abuse their wives and wives just need to shut up and take it. When you have to debate a caricature of your opponents arguments and beliefs, itÂ’s a sure sign you got nothing.
                              but that is not what oxmix is saying. He is not arguing that there is explicit teaching, but that the teaching impacts the culture within the church.

                              Paige Patterson was a prominent evangelical elite, when he looked at retirement, he was offered housing and a cushy job as theologian-in-residence as a thanks for a life of service in the church. But his views, and responses to allegations of rape and abuse show a pattern of scandal; the events and series of retaliations and incriminations can be easily looked up.

                              Patterson is not an isolated example. His story illustrates how the me too movement has made an impact on the church, and brought on a serious, and deep, reconsideration of complementarianism. And no, it is not an either/or dichotomy, all or nothing on complementarianism.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                                but that is not what oxmix is saying. He is not arguing that there is explicit teaching, but that the teaching impacts the culture within the church.
                                He’s arguing from an assumption that he can’t prove. The logic is:

                                “X can lead to Y, so X is bad”

                                But can’t establish that X is the problem to start with. People will take about anything they can to make it into something they can use to take advantage of others. Humans do that kind of stuff, doesn’t mean the originating idea is bad.

                                Paige Patterson was a prominent evangelical elite, when he looked at retirement, he was offered housing and a cushy job as theologian-in-residence as a thanks for a life of service in the church. But his views, and responses to allegations of rape and abuse show a pattern of scandal; the events and series of retaliations and incriminations can be easily looked up.
                                1. This guy that advocated this idea did bad things.
                                2. Therefore, this idea is bad.

                                Sloppy thinking at its finest. What logical fallacy did you just commit?

                                Patterson is not an isolated example. His story illustrates how the me too movement has made an impact on the church, and brought on a serious, and deep, reconsideration of complementarianism. And no, it is not an either/or dichotomy, all or nothing on complementarianism.
                                What logical fallacy, did you just commit?

                                BTW I’m not a complementarian, but I do have friends that are and can’t stand sloppy thinking and logical fallacies being passed around as fact.
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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