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Impeachment Standards: Dershowitz and Philbin

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  • #16
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Sam isn't that exactly what the DNC and Clinton campaign did?
    No, it's not. But you're right that folks on the right have alleged this is what the Clinton campaign and DNC did. Before yesterday, a lot of folks here were calling that the real collusion and calling for investigations of the former DNC contractor.

    If the President's lawyers are correct, were those demands for investigation wrong? Was it really OK the whole time?

    --Sam
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sam View Post
      No, it's not. But you're right that folks on the right have alleged this is what the Clinton campaign and DNC did. Before yesterday, a lot of folks here were calling that the real collusion and calling for investigations of the former DNC contractor.

      If the President's lawyers are correct, were those demands for investigation wrong? Was it really OK the whole time?

      --Sam
      That is false Sam, that is exactly what the DNC did, they funded the Steele dossier that used foreign sources in Russian and Ukraine. And we should investigate it to bring it to light, whether it is illegal or not is another story. Never mind the fact that Adam Schiff was willing to use a foreign source (Russian) to get dirt on Trump. So get off your high horse - like I said politics is not bean bag...
      Last edited by seer; 01-30-2020, 09:06 AM.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        Yeah, Philbin's argument (at ~2:15:00) is that "mere information does not violate federal campaign finance laws". If there is "credible information of wrongdoing", Philbin argues, it's not illegal to accept and use in an election.
        So nothing about "stolen emails or false allegations", right?

        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        So a campaign or candidate, Philbin argument goes, can directly work with foreign sources to obtain information against an opponent so long as the candidate believes that information to be "credible".
        That's what Hillary did when she colluded with Ukraine in an attempt to dig up dirt on Trump, and what her campaign did when they paid Christopher Steele to write up his hoax "dossier", and what the Obama administration did when they kicked off the Russian Collusion Delusion long before Trump was even elected. So you guys can all breath a sigh of relief that according to Trump's defense team, none of that was illegal.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          "Weak point. Yell louder."

          Some ideas are so absurd the dont need to be argued against. That some are willing g to allow this argument to sway them is only an indication of how far down the slope we have slid. And a person willing to swallow this load of pablum has abandoned reason in the first place.
          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 01-30-2020, 09:26 AM.
          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            That is false Sam, that is exactly what the DNC did, they funded the Steele dossier that used foreign sources in Russian and Ukraine. And we should investigate it to bring it to light, whether it is illegal or not is another story. Never mind the fact that Adam Schiff was willing to use a foreign source (Russian) to get dirt on Trump. So get off your high horse - like I said politics is not bean bag...
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            So nothing about "stolen emails or false allegations", right?


            That's what Hillary did when she colluded with Ukraine in an attempt to dig up dirt on Trump, and what her campaign did when they paid Christopher Steele to write up his hoax "dossier", and what the Obama administration did when they kicked off the Russian Collusion Delusion long before Trump was even elected. So you guys can all breath a sigh of relief that according to Trump's defense team, none of that was illegal.
            If you two are going to continue, I'm going to ask that you answer the question posed in the OP. You can tu quoque if you want, but you have to make the affirmative case if you agree with Trump's lawyers or explain why they're wrong.

            --Sam
            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sam View Post
              If you two are going to continue, I'm going to ask that you answer the question posed in the OP. You can tu quoque if you want, but you have to make the affirmative case if you agree with Trump's lawyers or explain why they're wrong.

              --Sam
              The point is Sam some of this stuff is unseemly but probably not illegal, and certainly not impeachable. And both sides do it. Let the voters decide...And let me ask you Sam, if Biden did use his position to protect his son from the investigation in Ukraine would it be legitimate for Trump or his justice dept. to investigate that?
              Last edited by seer; 01-30-2020, 09:41 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                False, Dershorwitz never said "anything [a politician] does in pursuit of his re-election is legal". What he actually said:

                "Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest. And mostly you're right. Your election is in the public interest. And if a president did something that he believes will help him get elected, in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment."

                Note the implication: there are other kinds of quid pro quos that should result in impeachment, but this is not one of them.

                Seems Dersh made a solid argument if people are having to twist his words to answer it.
                E3AC101A-10B5-4D7F-AC00-54FD0A8A8B6D.jpeg

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  The point is Sam some of this stuff is unseemly but probably not illegal, and certainly not impeachable. And both sides do it. Let the voters decide...And let me ask you Sam, if Biden did use his position to protect his son from the investigation in Ukraine would it be legitimate for Trump or his justice dept. to investigate that?
                  I want my threads to have some semblance of topic and order. The DOJ has not, to anyone's knowledge here, opened an investigation into Hunter or Joe Biden. We're not talking about questions involving domestic investigations with legitimate predicates.

                  So, if you want to keep going, I'd like you to address Dershowitz's and Philbin's arguments as laid out in the OP -- are they wrong? Are they right? Why are they wrong or right? What application does that argument have and how does it change things you may have argued in the past?

                  We can veer off-topic once folks have put in the work to actually deal with the on-topic stuff.

                  --Sam
                  "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sam View Post
                    I want my threads to have some semblance of topic and order. The DOJ has not, to anyone's knowledge here, opened an investigation into Hunter or Joe Biden. We're not talking about questions involving domestic investigations with legitimate predicates.

                    So, if you want to keep going, I'd like you to address Dershowitz's and Philbin's arguments as laid out in the OP -- are they wrong? Are they right? Why are they wrong or right? What application does that argument have and how does it change things you may have argued in the past?

                    We can veer off-topic once folks have put in the work to actually deal with the on-topic stuff.

                    --Sam
                    Sam, I said what Trump did was not impeachable nor illegal. So yes they are right, you can forward a position that could be good both for your reelection and the country in general. Exactly like Lincoln did.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      Some ideas are so absurd the dont need to be argued against. That some are willing g to allow this argument to sway them is only an indication of how far down the slope we have slid. And a person willing to swallow this load of pablum has abandoned reason in the first place.
                      "Weak point. Yell louder and gesticulate wildly for emphasis!"

                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        So the DNC used foreign sources and corrupt sympathetic government officials to get a FISA warrant largely based on falsehoods to investigate the Trump campaign. Is that even a plausible standard for presidential campaigning? Never mind the fact that Dershowitz went through a list of past presidents that did similar things, including Washington, Adams and Lincoln. Politics is not bean bag Sam...
                        Great argument seer, there is and has been corruption in past presidential politics, therefore corruption is a-okay.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sam View Post
                          If you two are going to continue, I'm going to ask that you answer the question posed in the OP.
                          I told you, I will gladly answer the question in the OP if you can accurately present the defense team's argument.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            So the DNC used foreign sources and corrupt sympathetic government officials to get a FISA warrant largely based on falsehoods to investigate the Trump campaign. Is that even a plausible standard for presidential campaigning? Never mind the fact that Dershowitz went through a list of past presidents that did similar things, including Washington, Adams and Lincoln. Politics is not bean bag Sam...
                            I don't remember the whole list but I do remember Jimmy Carter and Obama were on it. The list was very long.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Let the voters decide...
                              The Democrats don't trust the voters to make the "right" decision, so they're trying to take our choice away.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by whag View Post
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]42430[/ATTACH]
                                "Evolution of a Trump Scandal"? More like "Evolution of a Straw Man Fallacy".
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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