Voting our values

[simplicio]

"we need to vote our values, our beliefs and our convictions. We shouldn't be endorsing candidates, we should be looking for candidates who endorse us." (Richard Land, a long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away)

Religion can be a carrier for conscience.... It can reinforce the nobility of the political enterprise - Michael Gerson, evangelical.

https://egbertowillies.com/2018/03/1...-evangelicals/

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...s/bushand.html

Richard Land has had leadership positions within the SBC. Michael Gerson was listed by Time as one of the most influential evangelicals in America. In other words, Christian elites along the line of Falwell, MacArthur, Dobson and Beth Moore.

[Cow Poke]

Is there a question in there somewhere?

[Sparko]

What point are you trying to make or ask?

[One Bad Pig]

It appears to be another attempt to promote Michel Gearson, and a not-so-subtle dig at Trump. I'm sure Charles approves.

[demi-conservative]

His obsessions with the SBC, Christian elites, and Beth Moore are now crossing over and mixing with political obsessions.

[simplicio]

Is there a question in there somewhere?

Several posters have objected to posts in which the response includes a follow up question.

The quote from Land is several years old, the Gerson quote is more recent. On the face, they seem to say the same thing. But two decades have basically altered the political landscape, what was once seen as basic and common sense for the Christian is now the political minefield, Trump-at-any-cost and TDS are built on the same values!

Have Christian values changed, conservative values changed, Republican values changed over two decades?

Does Trump or his policies embody evangelical and Christian values?

Is the political enterprise inherently noble, or irretrievably corrupt and corrupting? Can the Christian maintain his Christian values when he goes to Washington?

[simplicio]

It appears to be another attempt to promote Michel Gearson, and a not-so-subtle dig at Trump. I'm sure Charles approves.

I think this is the first time I've referred to Gerson.

If you've read my posts, you will see that a common thread is Christian support of Trump, especially the arguments used in support of Trump.

I am not really concerned of the judgement of Charles. Do you think that the Creator judges us? If so, on what does He base his judgement on?

[Cow Poke]

Several posters have objected to posts in which the response includes a follow up question.

The OP sets up the thread for discussion, and generally offers either a topic to be discussed or a question to be answered.

The quote from Land is several years old, the Gerson quote is more recent. On the face, they seem to say the same thing. But two decades have basically altered the political landscape, what was once seen as basic and common sense for the Christian is now the political minefield, Trump-at-any-cost and TDS are built on the same values!

Have Christian values changed, conservative values changed, Republican values changed over two decades?

Has the world changed? Has American changed? Yes, sadly, Christians too often change with the times.

Does Trump or his policies embody evangelical and Christian values?

They are less hostile to them than the Democrats' policies. Unfortunately, those are the choices we have.

Is the political enterprise inherently noble, or irretrievably corrupt and corrupting? Can the Christian maintain his Christian values when he goes to Washington?

My wife and I went to Washington a few years ago, and she's every bit the Christian she was before she went. (She's still praying for me)

[One Bad Pig]

I think this is the first time I've referred to Gerson.

If you've read my posts, you will see that a common thread is Christian support of Trump, especially the arguments used in support of Trump.

Yes, I gathered that was your angle. Try not to conflate my defense of Trump regarding unwarranted attacks with support of the man; few here appear to be capable of grasping that distinction, but perhaps you're one of them.

I am not really concerned of the judgement of Charles. Do you think that the Creator judges us? If so, on what does He base his judgement on?

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that how we vote isn't high on the list of considerations.

[Cow Poke]

...Try not to conflate my defense of Trump regarding unwarranted attacks with support of the man; few here appear to be capable of grasping that distinction....

Yeah, THAT!!!!

[Sparko]

well if we are voting our values, it doesn't matter if Trump is Christian or not. He is against abortion, for freedom of religion, especially Christianity which seems to have taken a beating in recent decades. So regardless of who the man is, he is fighting for some of the values we as Christians hold. Not all of course, but no President has that I recall.

[simplicio]

Yes, I gathered that was your angle. Try not to conflate my defense of Trump regarding unwarranted attacks with support of the man; few here appear to be capable of grasping that distinction, but perhaps you're one of them.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that how we vote isn't high on the list of considerations.

Then why your comment that the OP was another attempt to promote Gerson?

Do you think that how a Christian votes is irrelevant? Many insist that voting is important for the Christian. Do you think voting for pro abortion candidates is without consequence? Voting for the Nazis a century ago was without consequence?

I think it worthwhile to look at the arguments used by Christians to see what they find acceptable, are willing to defend, and compare that to the values expressed a couple of decades ago.

[Juvenal]

Try not to conflate my defense of Trump regarding unwarranted attacks with support of the man; few here appear to be capable of grasping that distinction, but perhaps you're one of them.

I've seen unwarranted attacks against Trump here. I've seen dispassionate descriptions of Trump's behavior mischaracterized as attacks. Defending against the first without calling out the second is indistinguishable from support.

It's an arithmetic thing.

[JimL]

well if we are voting our values, it doesn't matter if Trump is Christian or not. He is against abortion, for freedom of religion, especially Christianity which seems to have taken a beating in recent decades. So regardless of who the man is, he is fighting for some of the values we as Christians hold. Not all of course, but no President has that I recall.

While dismanteling democratic institutions wherein none of your values will be safe.

[One Bad Pig]

I've seen unwarranted attacks against Trump here. I've seen dispassionate descriptions of Trump's behavior mischaracterized as attacks. Defending against the first without calling out the second is indistinguishable from support.

It's an arithmetic thing.

Dispassionate descriptions of Trump's behavior are passing rare in these here parts - and mayhap you've missed the times where I've agreed that Trump is often crude, inordinately thin-skinned, and someone needs to take away his Twitter account. I have consistently been open in opining that Trump was the least worst option in 2016, and that continues to be my opinion. The Democrats seem determined to make him the least worst option again this year.