GYM DEBATE COMMENTARY - Does the Bible teach more than one coming of Christ?

[yxboom]

Gym Debate Notice:

A Gym debate thread is opened to debate the following issue:

The bible states there is only ONE return coming of Jesus, physical or otherwise

Sir Yap Alot will be defending the affirmative and Dee Dee Warren will be defending the negative. This debate will begin as soon as Sir Yap Alot makes his first post. The debate will last FIVE rounds

This debate is taking place here, and this thread is opened for the commentary on the debate.

If you are up and unable to meet your deadline please contact a moderator ASAP.
Please do not edit your post after this notice is posted.
If you are not a participant please feel free to participate in the commentary thread noted in the first post of this debate.

[Daywalker]

And newsflash…….In that sense, ALL Christians believe in more than one “coming” of Christ!!!! Even Yap does. So at its foundational level his question to me is inane, like asking what the color blue tastes like. We are not even speaking the same language...

...This does not preclude other “comings” that are not of the same nature, they would not be second, third, and fourth and so on, comings because they are not the same thing to be counted as one in a series of like things, as the word “coming” is very flexible and ALL Christians MUST believe this. Proof? Okay….

John 14:23-24
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.


Christ “comes” to a believer at conversion.

I have to honestly say that even before I started really studying eschatology I never saw John 14 as a "coming" of a different type than that of Christ's Futuristic Second Coming.
Those verses have nothing to do with a man's conversion. It is for saints that KEEP HIS WORD. As it related to the folks in THAT text, Christ would come for them and the Father would also make his abode with them.
NOTE: Christ comes LITERALLY, and the Father comes "in his house", Zion.

Remember, IN CONTEXT, he is speaking to those that are saints about his COMING AGAIN. The Father's House by the way, is always a reference to a TEMPLE. When Christ COMES, the Father's HOUSE will be PRESENT. The FATHER'S HOUSE is ZION. In John, "my Father's house" is defined at a TEMPLE.

John 2:14-17 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

When you study out Hebrews, you will find out that Zion, the abode of Christ, is also likened unto a temple with a Holy Place, etc. etc.

In Summary, what Christ was saying was that at his Second Coming, he would come and his Father's HOUSE would be present also. There are many saints that WILL HAVE ACCESS to THAT CITY, Zion. There are saints that will have access to "his Father's house".
Grace,
Mike

[Dee Dee Warren]

Mike I cannot post here to debate, I am just posting to thank you for participating in the commentary. Yap and I will appreciate it.

[Daywalker]

Thanks. I am really hoping that some of the Preterists will respond to my thread where I, as a Futurist, would like to know why it is God CAN'T do some things with Israel regarding the kingdom...
Still waiting for some more replies.
Grace,
Mike

[Dee Dee Warren]

Mike if I had more time I would. It is a good question though I would object to the wording "can't" but that is a nitpick. I am still planning on responding more in the Angels thread, but as you see, I am woefully slow and behind. There is a lot to running the forum that takes up my time, and I have been very sick lately.

[Bill the Cat]

Do you consider Jesus' visit to Paul as a "coming"??

[Daywalker]

Do you consider Jesus' visit to Paul as a "coming"??

I don't, no.

[Daywalker]

I don't, no.

...and it was not an actual "visit"...it was only a vision

[Lee1023]

Still learning the rules here, and I may be out of line for question asking this question here. Correct me if I shouldn't.

In your debate, how does the Greek word for "coming" fit in? The word is "parousia" (sp?) and it is means presence or an awareness of presence. It doesn't convey the meaning of coming from one place to another.

Also, "Christ," the Greek word "Christos," means "annointing." Is that what will return? If so then how do we at present bear the annointing of God as scripture
teaches?

In Love,

Lee1023

[GhostontheNet]

I think a long thread in itself could be made just on data of the Parousia as there is much and varying positions. Also, I thought Christos was annointed, as in the annointed one or Messiah, though I'm relying on memory for the moment.
As to the debate, I think SirYapAlot could look at Strong's concordance under 1074. Genea 1c and find "of the whole multitude of men living at the same time; ... and especially of those of the Jewish race living in the same period." Especially if trying to attempt a "that generation" argument using Strong's Concordance.

Edit: for Christos.

[Bib Lit Major]

...and it was not an actual "visit"...it was only a vision

Visions seldom involve loud noises which other people external to the visionary can hear, nor can they see light. I don't have a view on whether or not the episode can be called a "coming" but I don't think a vision is an accurate description of the phenomenon either.

Anyways, just my 2 cents...Take care!

Kevin

[Dee Dee Warren]

;

[John Reece]

. . . In your debate, how does the Greek word for "coming" fit in? The word is "parousia" (sp?) and it is means presence or an awareness of presence. It doesn't convey the meaning of coming from one place to another.

Lee1023,

That's in interesting point re the sense of the Greek word parousia.

According to The Eerdmans Analytical Concordance to the Revised Standard Version, there are 44 different Greek words that are rendered "come" in the RSV.

According to Computer Concordance to the Greek New Testament (Nestle-Aland 26) by Walter De Gruyter, parousia occurs 24 times in the Greek New Testament. The most frequently used of the 44 different Greek words rendered "come" in the Revised Standard Version is erchomai, which occurs 636 times in the Greek New Testament.

I'd do a word study on this topic, but there are just too many words and too many occurrences . . . too much work required . . .

Also, "Christ," the Greek word "Christos," means "anointing." Is that what will return? If so then how do we at present bear the anointing of God as scripture teaches?

In Love,

Lee1023

That's another interesting thought . . .

Blessings,

John