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Thread: The political obligation of Catholics

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    The political obligation of Catholics

    A couple of hypotheticals:

    1.) An election has a Klanner who is 100% pro life pitted against a candidate who is moderate but believes abortion should not be made illegal What is the consciencous Catholic to do?

    2.) If abortion were outlawed but the number of actual abortions only dropped slightly, and the drop was matched by an increase in deaths of women at the hands of abortionists?

    I thought about placing this in the Christian only section of Tweb, but thought it should be opened to others by the slightly altered scenario of two unpalatable choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    A couple of hypotheticals:

    1.) An election has a Klanner who is 100% pro life pitted against a candidate who is moderate but believes abortion should not be made illegal What is the consciencous Catholic to do?

    2.) If abortion were outlawed but the number of actual abortions only dropped slightly, and the drop was matched by an increase in deaths of women at the hands of abortionists?

    I thought about placing this in the Christian only section of Tweb, but thought it should be opened to others by the slightly altered scenario of two unpalatable choices.
    Well you are the Catholic. What would you do?

  3. Amen mossrose, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
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    George Yancey (a prominent Christian sociologist) was discussing something similar to scenario #1 on Facebook today. He suggested the 1992 Louisiana governor election, where David Duke (pro-life for white children) ran against Edwin Edwards (pro-choice for all). He concluded that the damage that the pro-life movement would have taken had they coalesced around Duke would have outweighed any marginal gains they could have made in that case.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  5. Amen oxmixmudd amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    A couple of hypotheticals:

    1.) An election has a Klanner who is 100% pro life pitted against a candidate who is moderate but believes abortion should not be made illegal What is the consciencous Catholic to do?

    2.) If abortion were outlawed but the number of actual abortions only dropped slightly, and the drop was matched by an increase in deaths of women at the hands of abortionists?

    I thought about placing this in the Christian only section of Tweb, but thought it should be opened to others by the slightly altered scenario of two unpalatable choices.
    #1 is much as KingsGambit described it. There is no way vote 'pro-life' in that case.


    #2 is perhaps the more problematic, but maybe not. If the number of deaths stays roughly the same, then I think you would need to just leave it as is in that some of those abortions are at a stage where there is no mind, no person there yet, but the women killed all have a mind, they are all persons. The other side of that coin is the innocent vs guilty (those getting the abortion are 'guilty' per se, not innocent as one would ascribe to the child), but I'd argue that the ambiguity about the personhood of the most early stages, but not the person having the abortion, also impacts the assignment of innocence, and that pushes it clearly towards leave the law as it is assuming the prescribed outcome.

    #2 is also very contrived. There is no way to ever actually know if changing the law will create a precise balance of deaths.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-05-2020 at 12:50 PM.
    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

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    I happen to have an old acquaintance from high school who is now a Catholic blogger with a fairly sizable following. He is theologically conservative and I enjoy reading his perspective. His general take, which he says is in accordance with canon law, is that one can cast a vote for a candidate who is not pro-life if one believes that as a whole their candidacy will save more lives, but one cannot vote for a candidate *because* they are pro-choice. I generally defer to what he has to say on what Catholics actually believe.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    A couple of hypotheticals:

    1.) An election has a Klanner who is 100% pro life pitted against a candidate who is moderate but believes abortion should not be made illegal What is the consciencous Catholic to do?

    2.) If abortion were outlawed but the number of actual abortions only dropped slightly, and the drop was matched by an increase in deaths of women at the hands of abortionists?

    I thought about placing this in the Christian only section of Tweb, but thought it should be opened to others by the slightly altered scenario of two unpalatable choices.
    What if the extent of how rampant #2 is is just a myth, or a fearmongering lie to justify legalizing abortion? That sounds more plausible to me knowing how dishonest the left is in trying to endorse their political agendas. I also find it highly unlikely women would go to extraordinary lengths to seek a risky abortion because they bypassed the much simpler method of contraceptive.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    What if the extent of how rampant #2 is is just a myth, or a fearmongering lie to justify legalizing abortion? That sounds more plausible to me knowing how dishonest the left is in trying to endorse their political agendas. I also find it highly unlikely women would go to extraordinary lengths to seek a risky abortion because they bypassed the much simpler method of contraceptive.
    It would still be fairly widespread (as it was nearly a century ago) but I highly doubt it would come even close to the current number of abortions. So I don't think it's a strong point myself.

    The actual question is how many states would outlaw abortion, and how many people would thus be unable to travel to a state that did not. Most likely it would mainly deter teenagers and poorer people in the South though there would still be a reduction for sure.

    There are billionaires who feel passionate about legal abortion. I would predict that well funded "charities" would set up daily or weekly bus trips from some of the biggest cities in Texas over to clinics just over the border in, say New Mexico to offset some of this.
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 02-05-2020 at 04:57 PM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    A couple of hypotheticals:

    1.) An election has a Klanner who is 100% pro life pitted against a candidate who is moderate but believes abortion should not be made illegal What is the consciencous Catholic to do?

    2.) If abortion were outlawed but the number of actual abortions only dropped slightly, and the drop was matched by an increase in deaths of women at the hands of abortionists?

    I thought about placing this in the Christian only section of Tweb, but thought it should be opened to others by the slightly altered scenario of two unpalatable choices.
    Well, the "official" guideline for Catholics regarding voting, at least in the US, is this:
    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...ship-title.cfm

    So I guess you could try to figure it out with that.

    Though if this is posed more specifically for Catholics, wouldn't it make more sense to ask this on a place like Catholic Answers?

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    #1 is much as KingsGambit described it. There is no way vote 'pro-life' in that case.


    #2 is perhaps the more problematic, but maybe not. If the number of deaths stays roughly the same, then I think you would need to just leave it as is in that some of those abortions are at a stage where there is no mind, no person there yet, but the women killed all have a mind, they are all persons. The other side of that coin is the innocent vs guilty (those getting the abortion are 'guilty' per se, not innocent as one would ascribe to the child), but I'd argue that the ambiguity about the personhood of the most early stages, but not the person having the abortion, also impacts the assignment of innocence, and that pushes it clearly towards leave the law as it is assuming the prescribed outcome.

    #2 is also very contrived. There is no way to ever actually know if changing the law will create a precise balance of deaths.
    The number of deaths of women at the hands of abortionists were deliberately grossly exaggerated by the pro-abortion crowd in order to garner support for it as the co-founder of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws (NARAL) and one time director of New York City’s Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health, Bernard N. Nathanson, revealed after he repented his pro-abortion views after the advent of ultrasound technology. Nathanson confessed that he and his fellow travelers constantly fed the media the lie that 10,000 women a year died as a result of botched illegal abortion when in fact it was but a tiny fraction of that (in 1972, the year prior to Roe v. Wade, 28 deaths were reported from illegal abortions). And of course the MSM dutifully and unquestioningly parroted these numbers.

    The Washington Post gave the president of Planned Parenthood 4 Pinocchios last year for continuing to disseminate the lie that thousands of women died each year before Roe.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  12. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraceth View Post
    Well, the "official" guideline for Catholics regarding voting, at least in the US, is this:
    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-acti...ship-title.cfm

    So I guess you could try to figure it out with that.

    Though if this is posed more specifically for Catholics, wouldn't it make more sense to ask this on a place like Catholic Answers?
    It came straight from an interview with Archbishop Chaput. I had thought about how to frame it, and decided on using the title of the article, since the Catholic Church has oodles of statements and pronouncements on the topic, the possibility of drawing in more comments, and it diverts away from the difficulties of dealing with hypotheticals.

    The document you linked to lists four principles on social teaching: human dignity, subsidiarity, solidarity, common good; but participation in public life demands a well formed conscience, while recognizing that public participation is a virtue and an obligation.

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