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Thread: The De-Ukrainification of the National Security Council

  1. #91
    tWebber Ronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Why is Israel important but Ukraine not? Is US interests really tied to the existence of a Jewish state, or do you choose to place importance to Israel for other reasons? I think our military is strong enough that we could still carry on in Iraq or Syria without Israeli real estate.
    The US doesn't fight to protect Israel, it quite capably defends itself. If you are arguing against sending them $1.5 billion a year US financial aid, then I agree with you.

    We do pick and choose which countries to become entangled, many African countries have a low priority, which is why Marines stood in the Congo watching Rwandan bodies float down the river during the Rwandan genocide. And we re evaluated our policies.

    East European countries like Poland and Hungary joined NATO for several reasons, defense against Russia is but one. If we did not fear Russian expansion, Russian hegemony in the region, I wonder if we would have taken the risk of alienating the Russians by accepting those countries.
    IMO, US involvement in NATO is no longer needed. It just makes freeloaders out of the rest of them. All the way back in the 1990s, Margaret Thatcher acknowledged NATO European deadbeats. It's not going to change so long as the US is involved.

    We rejected the total war strategy of WWII. The mass bombings of Vietnam was different the the air campaigns over Germany where we targeted civilians. Hanoi was largely unscathed, except for areas of military importance (even the the precision was imperfect). In the early fifties we trained soldiers for the nuclear battlefield, while questioning its strategic value. MacArthur broke with Truman over that issue, Truman rejected the use of the A bomb, which would have sealed off the Chinese.

    The policy of containment was analogous to Obama's response, massive aid to Ukraine, but limited so as not to prod the Russian bear, a balancing act, which was similar to cold war responses of judicious use of aid.

    What makes a nation? The English swallowed Wales at (or before) the rise of the modern nation state, and the Welch see themselves as an integral part of Britain, even if uneasy. The Irish were swallowed up into the empire and the English could never incorporate Ireland fully. The Russians did not swallow Crimea until Catherine the Great, just before the nineteenth century. We have an uneasy relationship with Puerto Rico taken by 1900 but never fully absorbed.

    Russia sees its former territories as a natural extension of its nation, similar to our view of the western hemisphere as our doorstep. Smedley Butler was a Marine who single handedly made the Americas safe for the corporations, and became the Marine's Marine (writing the small wars manual which was dusted off for our current wars). We treated the former Soviet Republics as part of the Russian sphere of influence, with the major exceptions being the Baltic States and Ukraine. Belarus was basically re-incorporated without protest, a tacit recognition of existence of that sphere of influence.
    What are you referring to? Belarus hasn't been "reincorporated".

    Russians might not be enslaved by their history, but they sure try to repeat it. The same people, have had various forms of a state or regime (all within the twentieth century). And at every time, they always saw expanding their territory as the buffer against invasions and encroaching foreign powers.
    1) Russia is a region, it is a government, and it is a people. It isn't a thing with tendencies and beliefs. You make it sound like the Russian people have tendencies and can't change, which borders on racism. How would you describe these Russians? Aberrations?

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/...r-prank-a69221

    2) Again, what Putin does in ithat region is a regional problem. The EU borders that region and Putin wants good relations with the EU. Let them hash it out.
    Last edited by Ronson; 02-11-2020 at 05:44 AM.

  2. Amen Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  3. #92
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    The US doesn't fight to protect Israel, it quite capably defends itself. If you are arguing against sending them $1.5 billion a year US financial aid, then I agree with you.



    IMO, US involvement in NATO is no longer needed. It just makes freeloaders out of the rest of them. All the way back in the 1990s, Margaret Thatcher acknowledged NATO European deadbeats. It's not going to change so long as the US is involved.



    What are you referring to? Belarus hasn't been "reincorporated".



    1) Russia is a region, it is a government, and it is a people. It isn't a thing with tendencies and beliefs. You make it sound like the Russian people have tendencies and can't change, which borders on racism. How would you describe these Russians? Aberrations?

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/...r-prank-a69221

    2) Again, what Putin does in ithat region is a regional problem. The EU borders that region and Putin wants good relations with the EU. Let them hash it out.
    Belarus has not been reincorporated, integration within the Union State has not gotten very far. Other similar supra-state accords have happened in history, but usually with military coercion. The accord was signed. And others want to join.

    Talk about searching for racism where there isn't, I didn't even mention the commonly used literary trope about the mystifying Russian soul! We do speak about a national character for many groups. The Russian Soul is connected to the pan slav movement of both Russians and Poles, and that survives today. Russian geography combined with their history has formed the tendency which can be found in each century since the formation of the Rus into a nation. Here is a piece which draws on the idea, placing imperial designs as a continual characteristic, a national character. http://europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article33683

  4. #93
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The De-Ukrainification of the National Security Council

    Attachment 42611

    Firing Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, a Ukraine expert at the National Security Council, and his twin brother Yevgeny, an NSC lawyer, is just the start of a promised restructuring and a rebuilding of the National Security Council.

    Last September, National Security Advisor Robert O’Brien pledged to drastically downsize what he called the “bloated” NSC staff, so it is encouraging to see that some of that “bloat” was just escorted out of the White House on Friday. The swelling of the NSC ranks was real and Obama was to blame. During the George W. Bush administration, there were 100 policy professionals working in the NSC under Condoleezza Rice — but, the number ballooned to 236 under President Obama.

    President Trump should have demanded that the NSC be streamlined in 2016, but he has been poorly served by the Council and was undermined by a few too many Vindmans. O’Brien’s goal is to bring the NSC down to fewer than 120 policy staffers. However, his real goal should be to retain only those whose first priorities are to truly serve the president. Lt Col. Alexander Vindman is not one of those.

    Like several of those testifying at the impeachment hearings against Trump, Vindman’s allegiance to Ukraine was clear. During the preliminary televised hearings, Vindman claimed that in the spring of 2019 he became aware of what he called “outside influencers” promoting what he called a false narrative of Ukraine inconsistent with what he believed were “the consensus views of the interagency.” He stated that he believed that what he called a “false” narrative which suggested that Ukrainian government officials attempted to derail Trump’s candidacy in 2016 was “harmful to U.S. government policy… and undermined U.S. government efforts to expand cooperation with Ukraine.”

    In his testimony against the President, Vindman made the statement that “a strong and independent Ukraine is critical to U.S. national security interests because Ukraine is a frontline state and a bulwark against Russian aggression.” And he was hostile to anyone who did not agree.

    This ignored the fact that even Politico reported in January 2017 that Ukrainian officials tried to undermine Trump in the 2016 election by publicly disseminating documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggesting that they were investigating the matter....
    Why do you hate the Ukrainians so much?

  5. #94
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Why do you hate the Ukrainians so much?
    Why do you hate other Christians?

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  6. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #95
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronson View Post
    I'll disagree with it. Eastern Europe is the EU's concern, not the US. They're all big boys over there and they can take care of themselves.
    Freedom and democracy and therefore our allies in the cause is the U.S. concern. And Ukraine is not a big boy, they are a new and struggling democracy trying to free themselves from the influence of their tyrannical neighbor to their east.

  8. #96
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It had become bloated under Obama.
    It's not about being bloated, it's about taking control of, like he's doing with the FBI, the DOJ, and the DOD. Be afraid, be very very afraid. More to the point, wake up!

  9. #97
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    It's not about being bloated, it's about taking control of, like he's doing with the FBI, the DOJ, and the DOD. Be afraid, be very very afraid. More to the point, wake up!
    Trump will be enthroned in 2021
    . Bloomberg, by comparison, may be the candidate that most of the Founders hoped would arise: a wealthy patrician, much like them, who would use his vast resources and influence to defeat what he views as disruptive elements in the nation’s political system.

  10. #98
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Trump will be enthroned in 2021
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwrswvqv8sY

    After watching this, I think it likely that JimL will vote Trump 2020, doing his part to make America rake again.

  11. #99
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwrswvqv8sY

    After watching this, I think it likely that JimL will vote Trump 2020, doing his part to make America rake again.
    JimL will bow the knee to Emperor Trump, first of his line.
    . Bloomberg, by comparison, may be the candidate that most of the Founders hoped would arise: a wealthy patrician, much like them, who would use his vast resources and influence to defeat what he views as disruptive elements in the nation’s political system.

  12. #100
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Trump will be enthroned in 2021
    Well, being that you Putin loving, dictator loving, people, would like a corrupt King enthroned in the U.S. I understand your hope. I don't think it's going to pan out for you though.

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