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The De-Ukrainification of the National Security Council

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
    What will Vindman's next assignment be? Will he retire or does the Army need him to continue what he has been doing?
    As far as I know, he can continue with the military elsewhere.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      I think it's grossly exaggerated for political purposes. Was Crimea not important?
      Most of these folks didn't know what Ukraine was until Ciaramella-Schiff made it news. And if they did they weren't the least bit concerned that Obama never did send them weapons to defend themselves against Russian expansion and aggression and it was Trump who started sending them the Javelin anti-tank missiles that they had been literally pleading for long before the call with Zelensky.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Most of these folks didn't know what Ukraine was until Ciaramella-Schiff made it news. And if they did they weren't the least bit concerned that Obama never did send them weapons to defend themselves against Russian expansion and aggression and it was Trump who started sending them the Javelin anti-tank missiles that they had been literally pleading for long before the call with Zelensky.
        But, hey - the HateTrump crowd thinks Ukraine has become the most important country on the planet, VITAL to our national defense.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          But, hey - the HateTrump crowd thinks Ukraine has become the most important country on the planet, VITAL to our national defense.
          So, it's what? Unimportant? The fate of Ukraine has zero implications for the balance of US-Russian power on a global scale?
          "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
            Another falls to TDS.
            Excellent use of faulty assumptions and labeling to ridicule an opponent. I voted for Trump, and probably will again. But I don't have to blindly support his personality cult...like you apparently do.

            Do you actually have anything substantive to say?
            "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by myth View Post
              So, it's what? Unimportant?
              No sir, nor did I ever claim it was.

              The fate of Ukraine has zero implications for the balance of US-Russian power on a global scale?
              Never said that, either.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                No sir, nor did I ever claim it was.



                Never said that, either.
                Just highlighting the other side of the coin. I, for one, don't think that the national security of a relatively unimportant fledgling democracy was worth risking for Trump's political career. But hey, that's just me. And Mitt Romney, apparently. lol
                "If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

                Comment


                • #23
                  THIS part of the article cited in the OP (which I suspect most here have not actually read) is particularly interesting, and underscores a point my budder has made in the past....

                  In his own testimony on November 19, Vindman admitted that he was so concerned about the telephone conversation between Trump and the Ukraine President Zelinsky that he told two individuals about the President’s demands in the telephone call. Stating that both of these individuals were “cleared U. S. government officials, with appropriate need to know,” Vindman named one of them, State Department Deputy Assistant Secretary George Kent. But he refused to identify the other individual — claiming that he had been advised by counsel “not to answer specific questions about members of the intelligence community.” Pressed by Rep. Devin Nunes, Vindman continued to refuse to disclose the name of the individual he told about the president’s call, and Chairman Schiff interrupted to say that Vindman was not allowed to say anything that could reveal the identity of the whistleblower.

                  This exchange suggests that Vindman was likely the source for the whistleblower — even though both he and Schiff continue to claim that they do not know the identity of the whistleblower. In his opening statements in his testimony against the president, Vindman pronounced: “I am a patriot.” But undermining a sitting president is not patriotic.


                  Get that --- Schiff interrupts questioning to say that Vindman was not allowed to say anything that could reveal the identity of the (alleged) whistle blower, yet Schiff claims not to know the identity of the (alleged) whistle blower. So, how did Schiff know that was a risk?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                    So you want to focus on Vindman's concern as we move the Presidency beyond the internal sabatoge? Vindman was weakening our government as he supposedly sought aid for Urkaine. I just don't see that as a good way to protect America.
                    The thread title is on "de-Ukraninization of the NSC" Which suggests that the Ukraine has undue influence in the conduct of US foreign policy.

                    So I thought it proper to look at the role Ukraine ought to play in US policy.

                    Yes, I think the Ukraine should be a front line in containment, even the place to roll back Russian adventurism. But I fear that ship has sailed.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Why are you pushing the Russian narrative regarding 2016 election interference?
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by myth View Post
                        Excellent use of faulty assumptions and labeling to ridicule an opponent. I voted for Trump, and probably will again. But I don't have to blindly support his personality cult...like you apparently do.

                        Do you actually have anything substantive to say?
                        Do you have anything to actually say beside parroting the like of WaPo or the NYT?

                        Ukraine has turned hostile to the Russians within its borders. As a result, the Russian dominated areas in East Ukraine will, given the choice between a hostile Ukraine and Russia with their own people, vote overwhelmingly to join Russia.

                        But why am I bothering, you're probably the sort who still believe 'Kurds are our allies ' or the official story on the Iran-Soleimani mess, which is still changing.
                        Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by myth View Post
                          Just highlighting the other side of the coin.
                          Fair enough.

                          I, for one, don't think that the national security of a relatively unimportant fledgling democracy was worth risking for Trump's political career. But hey, that's just me. And Mitt Romney, apparently. lol
                          So, two sides of the coin --- you don't think Ukraine was as critically important as the partisan Democrats tried to make it out to be, AND you don't think it was worth Trump... what you said.

                          Did you catch the part about the parties in the Ukraine who were reportedly working to undermine Trump, and work for Hillary?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            Why are you pushing the Russian narrative regarding 2016 election interference?
                            It's always helpful, my misguided friend, to make it clear to whom you are addressing questions, so that the intended party may respond accordingly.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by myth View Post
                              Funny, and here I thought the point of serving on the National Security Council staff would be to serve the nation. I'd expect nothing less than these petty shenanigans from Trump.

                              This cult of personal loyalty to Trump is troubling in the extreme.
                              This is ridicule: you're a moron for thinking that firing a Ukranian because of his obvious loyalty issues and the massive lack of judgment over Ukraine policy is unreasonable.
                              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                                What will Vindman's next assignment be? Will he retire or does the Army need him to continue what he has been doing?
                                According to Vindman, Ukraine offered to hire him as their Defense Minister. Perhaps that gig is still open?
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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