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Thread: Christianity and political life

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    tWebber
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    Christianity and political life

    1.) "The church's fundamental purpose is not to transform society at the macro level, but to ignite the love of Christ in real people living real daily lives. The Church's fundamental mission is to build a kingdom of G-d soul by soul, person by person, in local communities which are shaped gradually through the Church's own ministry...Effectiveness here may not always result in major transformation of the larger society."

    Agree or disagree, and why?

    2.) "There cannot be two parallel lives in [the Christian's] existence: on the one hand, the 'spiritual life'", with its values and demands, and on the other, the 'secular life', with responsibilities in public life and culture

    Does this represent a Christian view of life?

    3.) the Two Kingdoms doctrine of the Protestant world and the Two Swords doctrine of the Catholics posits a clear line of demarcation between the two realms of temporal and the spiritual authorities.

    The two kingdoms doctrine is interesting because it is the one doctrine of Luther which draws the most controversy outside of the sectarian, denominational, distinctives like faith alone

    Three distinct views on the the role of faith in politics, each with adherents here (even if the individuals are not aware of it)

    the first from Catholic Culture's article Catholicism is even more local than politics; the second from Doctrinal Notes on the participation of Catholics in political life, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; the third is a brief summary of the two doctrines. Since the sources are specifically Catholic, I did not link them, though they can be looked up. Each position can be viewed from a broader or ecumenical perspective.

    Any thoughts? Is one more fruitful than the others?

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    tWebber
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    I am not comfortable with the formulation of the first, and I emphatically reject the two kingdom concept.

    I do believe that the Christian faith implies a definite and purposeful expansion of the private religious sphere into the public sphere. Plato saw the two spheres, public and private, with politics at the intersection of the two. Government is obviously the public sphere, and religion the personal and private sphere. So religion belongs in politics, and it is not hard to find religious justification for any political point of view.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Simp --- you seem to have a habit of starting a thread, then responding to your own OP.... that approaches "back to back posting", which is against the rules.

    I don't think you've gone overboard yet, I'm just seeing a pattern, and don't want you to get in trouble for that.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    1.) "The church's fundamental purpose is not to transform society at the macro level, but to ignite the love of Christ in real people living real daily lives. The Church's fundamental mission is to build a kingdom of G-d soul by soul, person by person, in local communities which are shaped gradually through the Church's own ministry...Effectiveness here may not always result in major transformation of the larger society."

    Agree or disagree, and why?
    I don't have time to respond in detail this morning, but you'd have to ignore the riots and revivals of Acts, and other sections of the New Testament where "And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; (Acts 17:6)

    And Paul upset the very economy in Ephesus by attacking Diana's Temple worship.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I don't have time to respond in detail this morning, but you'd have to ignore the riots and revivals of Acts, and other sections of the New Testament where "And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; (Acts 17:6)

    And Paul upset the very economy in Ephesus by attacking Diana's Temple worship.
    In other words, given a broad list of three possibilities, you couldn't find anything to agree with?

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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Integralism?

    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    3.) the Two Kingdoms doctrine of the Protestant world and the Two Swords doctrine of the Catholics posits a clear line of demarcation between the two realms of temporal and the spiritual authorities.
    This omits the fact that the Catholic vision of Boniface is to have control of the 'two swords'.

    We are taught by the words of the Gospel that in this Church and under her control there are two swords, the spiritual and the temporal . . . both of these, i.e., the spiritual and the temporal swords, are under the control of the Church. The first is wielded by the Church; the second is wielded on behalf of the church. The first is wielded by the hands of the priest, the second by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the wish and by the permission of the priests. Sword must be subordinate to sword, and it is only fitting that the temporal authority should be subject to the spiritual"
    "For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgment if it has not been good."
    "Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
    In this context, Catholic Integralists want the US to be completely Catholic in the sense expressed by Boniface.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    In other words, given a broad list of three possibilities, you couldn't find anything to agree with?
    OR, it's possible that, at the time, I didn't have time to respond in detail this morning, which is why I said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I don't have time to respond in detail this morning...



    I'm catching up right now, may I please have a few minutes?



    ETA: Is that all you're interested in? Somebody agreeing with you?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Integralism?



    This omits the fact that the Catholic vision of Boniface is to have control of the 'two swords'.







    In this context, Catholic Integralists want the US to be completely Catholic in the sense expressed by Boniface.
    Integrism, yes. But you misrepresent integralism. Boniface wrote in the context of the independence of the medieval Church against the competing powers of the French and English crowns, each taxing the church (above the ten percent tithe offered). "The state wields steel, Jesus wields words".

    Integralism addresses the influence of competing ideas and ideologies opposed to the faith in ways that classic liberalism does not (according to integralists). And integralism permeates Christian conservatism, on both sides of the Tiber. Secularism, secular humanism, abortion rights, sexual radicalism(s), and so on, endlessly all assail the faith.

    Integralism denies separation of spheres, using a model of single sphere in which temporal and spiritual unite for the common good, liberalism sees separate spheres with individual rights which unite to promote the common good. For much of this country's history, Caesar and Christ worked hand in hand, the radical divergence is a more recent thing. Social conservatism and the religious right is always draw to an integralist view, even formulating the problems using integralist ideas, solutions.

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    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Integrism, yes. But you misrepresent integralism. Boniface.... For much of this country's history, Caesar and Christ worked hand in hand, the radical divergence is a more recent thing. Social conservatism and the religious right is always draw to an integralist view, even formulating the problems using integralist ideas, solutions.
    Wormtongue, Boniface explicitly wanted Church to be in control of State. I do not misrepresent Catholic integralism.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Wormtongue, Boniface explicitly wanted Church to be in control of State. I do not misrepresent Catholic integralism.
    Why bless your heart, We all know that it is well accepted among Christian that anything of the past is what is meant today, that ideas do not change and evolve. That the SBC still supports slavery and segregation!

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