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  • #76
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Well the World Bank's 2019 report ranked NZ the #1 country for their ease-of-doing-business metric. Likewise the 2019 Human Freedom Index published by the libertarian Cato Institute ranked NZ #1 country in the world for human freedom.

    Apparently those 'generous benefits' which have been in place for over a decade at current levels aren't yet destroying the economy or destroying freedom. But probably any day now...
    So the burdens of the Marxian and socialist mandates haven't destroyed the economic resiliency of the Kiwis!

    Though I'm not convinced American libertarians know anything much at all about freedom, so I'm skeptical they should be the ones ranking it.
    That is a wide topic. Much of the libertarian movement is really a form of anarcho-capitalism, the application of anarchist philosophies to capitalism. Many Christians here are adept at following the bread crumbs from the anti-Christian philosophical source to the final result (CRT is an example), yet the same ones are particularly unmotivated to follow the trail to libertarianism's sources.

    At one time, the heroes of American Christians was Billy Graham and Bishop Sheen, today it is Ayn Rand and Gordon Gekko

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
      So the burdens of the Marxian and socialist mandates haven't destroyed the economic resiliency of the Kiwis!
      Most kiwis wouldn't recognize the words "Marxian" or "socialist". Having a decent social welfare system isn't either of those. Though our social welfare system was created in the 1930s by a left-wing party that had socialist roots. They instituted the first social security system in the world, and made NZ the first country in the world to have universal healthcare coverage (a UK NHS style system of government-owned hospitals providing free care to all). Both those things have stood the test of time pretty well!

      That is a wide topic. Much of the libertarian movement is really a form of anarcho-capitalism, the application of anarchist philosophies to capitalism. Many Christians here are adept at following the bread crumbs from the anti-Christian philosophical source to the final result (CRT is an example), yet the same ones are particularly unmotivated to follow the trail to libertarianism's sources.

      At one time, the heroes of American Christians was Billy Graham and Bishop Sheen, today it is Ayn Rand and Gordon Gekko
      I find US libertarianism to be a pretty incoherent and ignorant movement in general. Seems to be mostly high-school boys who don't know much about history or how societies function, along with a smattering of idealistic and crazy people who also don't know much about either of those things but like guns and the idea of jet packs.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        Most kiwis wouldn't recognize the words "Marxian" or "socialist". Having a decent social welfare system isn't either of those. Though our social welfare system was created in the 1930s by a left-wing party that had socialist roots. They instituted the first social security system in the world, and made NZ the first country in the world to have universal healthcare coverage (a UK NHS style system of government-owned hospitals providing free care to all). Both those things have stood the test of time pretty well!

        I find US libertarianism to be a pretty incoherent and ignorant movement in general. Seems to be mostly high-school boys who don't know much about history or how societies function, along with a smattering of idealistic and crazy people who also don't know much about either of those things but like guns and the idea of jet packs.
        "Most Kiwis wouldn't recognize the words Marxian or socialist" .... reminds me of the US dithering over New Deal programs, which quickly became embedded into the culture, the very fabric of society (as well as the Great Society of LBJ). But I doubt that FDR drew on socialist ideas as much as more traditional political values. The New Deal stood the test of time also.

        Libertarianism is rather incoherent, but because of its fractured and diverse nature, not because of "mostly high school boys" ignorant of history or social theories. Libertarianism draws isolationists, neo confederates, Randian types, anarcho capitalists (<= note the anarchist philosophy inherent there), economic conservatives (von hayak is a god and Road to Serfdom serves as scripture), populists, etc. Each of those stands has real philosophical underpinnings. Any movement does draw persons who may not be familiar with the academic reasonings for the position, which is why there is always some distinct cores of 'elites' and 'masses'.

        Republicans, Dems, socialists types, conservatives are all rather incoherent when looking at the movement, each has many strands of thought within it. Occupy Wall Street had outright radicals standing shoulder to shoulder with Fabian socialist, etc.; Conservatism has old school Buckley conservatives and Reaganite conservatives vying for power with today's populists, isolationists, paleoconservatives, etc. Yesterday's social conservatives have largely abandoned their former position to fit into today's political landscape.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          "Most Kiwis wouldn't recognize the words Marxian or socialist" .... reminds me of the US dithering over New Deal programs, which quickly became embedded into the culture, the very fabric of society (as well as the Great Society of LBJ). But I doubt that FDR drew on socialist ideas as much as more traditional political values. The New Deal stood the test of time also.

          Libertarianism is rather incoherent, but because of its fractured and diverse nature, not because of "mostly high school boys" ignorant of history or social theories. Libertarianism draws isolationists, neo confederates, Randian types, anarcho capitalists (<= note the anarchist philosophy inherent there), economic conservatives (von hayak is a god and Road to Serfdom serves as scripture), populists, etc. Each of those stands has real philosophical underpinnings. Any movement does draw persons who may not be familiar with the academic reasonings for the position, which is why there is always some distinct cores of 'elites' and 'masses'.

          Republicans, Dems, socialists types, conservatives are all rather incoherent when looking at the movement, each has many strands of thought within it. Occupy Wall Street had outright radicals standing shoulder to shoulder with Fabian socialist, etc.; Conservatism has old school Buckley conservatives and Reaganite conservatives vying for power with today's populists, isolationists, paleoconservatives, etc. Yesterday's social conservatives have largely abandoned their former position to fit into today's political landscape.
          Your post quality varies inversely with the amount of trolling and the number of question marks.
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
            Your post quality varies inversely with the amount of trolling and the number of question marks.
            Sure Demi. And you are the Christian par excellence, a model for all twebbers to emulate.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              Sure Demi. And you are the Christian par excellence, a model for all twebbers to emulate.


              Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              So the burdens of the Marxian and socialist mandates haven't destroyed the economic resiliency of the Kiwis!
              Only because there's been a backlash against the mass migration part of leftist agendas.
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                I doubt that FDR drew on socialist ideas as much as more traditional political values. The New Deal stood the test of time also.
                My understanding of the situation was that socialist and communist groups were getting very powerful in the US at the time, off the back of the Great Depression showing the failures of capitalism and the new USSR giving people around the world wild ideas of revolution. These groups were powerful enough that FDR went to them and asked what it would take for them to not have a USSR-style revolution, and so they dictated terms to him, which became the New Deal. Prior to that FDR had apparently been a fairly run-of-the-mill oligarch. Of course the moment he saw how popular the things the socialists had told him to do were, the politician in him ran with them.

                In that sense, a lot of Americans I don't think realize that Democratic Socialism has already been tried in the US... and the country liked the New Deal an awful lot.
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  So the burdens of the Marxian and socialist mandates haven't destroyed the economic resiliency of the Kiwis!
                  Only because there's been a backlash against the mass migration part of leftist agendas.
                  Mass migration isn't a leftist agenda in general, and especially with respect to NZ in particular it isn't.

                  Here in NZ the right-wing party is pro mass migration (and did it for 9 years while they were in power), and the left-wing parties are against it.

                  Also I note that in Europe, the country that had the biggest deliberate mass migration, was Germany, led by right-wing Angela Merkel, where she wanted to import a million immigrants for economic/demographic reasons.

                  In the US, likewise, Bernie has pointed out that he isn't for open borders and that that is a libertarian/Koch-brothers idea.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    Mass migration isn't a leftist agenda in general, and especially with respect to NZ in particular it isn't.

                    Here in NZ the right-wing party is pro mass migration (and did it for 9 years while they were in power), and the left-wing parties are against it.

                    Also I note that in Europe, the country that had the biggest deliberate mass migration, was Germany, led by right-wing Angela Merkel, where she wanted to import a million immigrants for economic/demographic reasons.

                    In the US, likewise, Bernie has pointed out that he isn't for open borders and that that is a libertarian/Koch-brothers idea.
                    It is obvious that these are exceptions. You deliberately leave out the obvious: Bernie isn't for open borders but all the other Democrat candidates are. Bernie and Corbyn opposes open borders because there is some old-school socialism left in them, but otherwise all the leftists entirely support mass migration.

                    Mass migration is leftist in Australia, UK, Sweden and so on, and it's only the 'far'-right-wing in Europe that oppose mass migration.
                    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Also, I said that mass migration was part of leftist agendas. That doesn't rule out it also being part of libertarian agenda, or big billionaires' agendas, and so on.
                      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                        Bernie isn't for open borders but all the other Democrat candidates are.
                        I've never once heard them espouse such policies in any of the debates I've watched. Can you point me to where in their policy proposals or speeches they advocate for an open border?

                        Bernie and Corbyn opposes open borders because there is some old-school socialism left in them, but otherwise all the leftists entirely support mass migration.

                        Mass migration is leftist in Australia, UK, Sweden and so on, and it's only the 'far'-right-wing in Europe that oppose mass migration.
                        You've got the UK there twice with 'Corbyn' and 'UK' separate. In Sweden the main left wing party did a u-turn on immigration in 2015 and switched from supporting it to opposing it. The last I heard in Australia, admittedly that was about a year ago, both the left and right wing agreed on wanting to cut their immigration rate.

                        And, as I mentioned, in both NZ and Germany, mass migration is a right-wing policy.

                        So it seems to vary by country and by point in time. Mass migration doesn't appear to be consistently be a right wing or left wing policy in general.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          I've never once heard them espouse such policies in any of the debates I've watched. Can you point me to where in their policy proposals or speeches they advocate for an open border?
                          "Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s new immigration plan would decriminalize migration, making it a civil rather than criminal violation, following the lead of a plan by former Housing and Urban Development Secretary Julián Castro."


                          You've got the UK there twice with 'Corbyn' and 'UK' separate. In Sweden the main left wing party did a u-turn on immigration in 2015 and switched from supporting it to opposing it.
                          Obviously that was for pragmatic reasons since mass migration became unpopular, the leftist ideology hasn't changed.

                          The last I heard in Australia, admittedly that was about a year ago, both the left and right wing agreed on wanting to cut their immigration rate.
                          Ditto.

                          And, as I mentioned, in both NZ and Germany, mass migration is a right-wing policy.
                          As I pointed out, NZ is an exception. And in Germany only the 'far'-right oppose mass migration, and the left entirely supported Merkel on that..

                          So it seems to vary by country and by point in time. Mass migration doesn't appear to be consistently be a right wing or left wing policy in general.
                          To get it into your thick head, mass migration is part of the leftist agenda.* They will reverse course temporarily for pragmatic reasons, but it has become a core part of the leftist ideology.

                          *That some right-wing, moderates, or libertarians also support mass migration does not alter this point one bit
                          Last edited by demi-conservative; 02-29-2020, 05:12 AM.
                          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Starlight View Post

                            In that sense, a lot of Americans I don't think realize that Democratic Socialism has already been tried in the US... and the country liked the New Deal an awful lot.
                            It still likes Social Security an awful lot.
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Yet another Open Borders Democrat

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Are you aware that if something is a civil rather than criminal violation, that it is still illegal?

                                mass migration is part of the leftist agenda... it has become a core part of the leftist ideology.
                                That appears to be simply false. As we've seen in this discussion, countries around the world are very mixed as to whether the left or right wing parties are for/against mass migration.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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