Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 30 of 30

Thread: Richard Rohr

  1. #21
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    slave & child of Christ
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    22,028
    Amen (Given)
    16633
    Amen (Received)
    10184
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Good question. I'm still there because I think it might be good for these people to hear what I have to say with the hope that I can make a difference in their position. With God's help maybe I can.
    And I get that, and agree that an attempt should be made to help them understand why they shouldn't be following the heretical teachers they are. Be aware that those that are not taught the deep theological things of God are unlikely to want to change, especially if the pastor is part of the problem, because they just don't have enough discernment to to recognize error. It appears that you are discerning, though!

    But, again with the greatest respect, remember Jesus words to His disciples, when he sent them out, that if people will not listen, they are to shake the dust from their feet.

    We have actually gone through an experience where we tried to show the error of what was going on, and no one was interested. There was always some rationalization that they gave that prevented them from even looking at the evidence we had given them. We had to leave.

    So, I pray God's blessing upon you and that you will be successful in your efforts.

    Last edited by mossrose; 02-10-2020 at 09:15 AM.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  2. #22
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    585
    Amen (Given)
    106
    Amen (Received)
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    And I get that, and agree that an attempt should be made to help them understand why they shouldn't be following the heretical teachers they are. Be aware that those that are not taught the deep theological things of God are unlikely to want to change, especially if the pastor is part of the problem, because they just don't have enough discernment to to recognize error. It appears that you are discerning, though!

    But, again with the greatest respect, remember Jesus words to His disciples, when he sent them out, that if people will not listen, they are to shake the dust from their feet.

    We have actually gone through an experience where we tried to show the error of what was going on, and no one was interested. There was always some rationalization that they gave that prevented them from even looking at the evidence we had given them. We had to leave.

    So, I pray God's blessing upon you and that you will be successful in your efforts.

    Thank you for the prayer and the hug.

  3. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
  4. #23
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    585
    Amen (Given)
    106
    Amen (Received)
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    The church today, aside from a few that stay with the word of God as their final authority, is so busy trying to get butts in the pews that they have resorted to marketing themselves. And in doing so, they fall prey to heretical books and false teachers because it's easier to do talking points from somebody's book than to actually open the truth's of God from scripture.

    We actually watched this video this morning that speaks a great deal to this issue.



    It's very enlightening.
    I listened to it once, but need to do it again. It made me sad.

    Could it be that there are some Christians who think they are Christians but are really not?

  5. #24
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    slave & child of Christ
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    22,028
    Amen (Given)
    16633
    Amen (Received)
    10184
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I listened to it once, but need to do it again. It made me sad.

    Could it be that there are some Christians who think they are Christians but are really not?
    It is very sad that this is going on in our churches, and yes, there are those who think they are Christians and they are not.

    I would like to recommend that you listen to all of the messages included in the Truth Matters Conference held last fall at Grace Community Church. They are all very good. You will find the page here,

    https://www.gty.org/library/resource...te/2?year=2019

    If you scroll down just a bit you will see the first one, Telling the Truth in a Post Truth World. There are several messages, and they all have TM- and then the number in the order which they were given.

    We are watching them now, but have only just finished the one I linked to by Mike Riccardi.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  6. #25
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    4,063
    Amen (Given)
    166
    Amen (Received)
    560
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Yeah, I get a lot of "I just can't believe that Jesus is the only way to God."

    "What about all of good people? Why would God send good people to hell just because they don't believe in Jesus?"
    Well, that 'church' is dead.
    . Bloomberg, by comparison, may be the candidate that most of the Founders hoped would arise: a wealthy patrician, much like them, who would use his vast resources and influence to defeat what he views as disruptive elements in the nation’s political system.

  7. #26
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    585
    Amen (Given)
    106
    Amen (Received)
    147
    My Pastor attending Bible Study last Thursday and explained the document I cited.

    He probably talked for about 45 minutes, but didn't pause for questions and he should have.

    He said he was 100% At-one-ment and Atonement.

    He said that for some Christians the concept of atonement did not work for them. The idea that God would sacrifice His son for humanity did not match their concept that everything God made was good. At-one-ment was about having a relationship with God.

    He rolled his eyes that Jesus was the only way to the Father.

  8. #27
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    slave & child of Christ
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    22,028
    Amen (Given)
    16633
    Amen (Received)
    10184
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    My Pastor attending Bible Study last Thursday and explained the document I cited.

    He probably talked for about 45 minutes, but didn't pause for questions and he should have.

    He said he was 100% At-one-ment and Atonement.

    He said that for some Christians the concept of atonement did not work for them. The idea that God would sacrifice His son for humanity did not match their concept that everything God made was good. At-one-ment was about having a relationship with God.

    He rolled his eyes that Jesus was the only way to the Father.
    Your last sentence says it all. Friend, you are sitting under heretical teaching and as I mentioned before, it is unlikely that things will change if he isn't even willing to allow questions about it.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  9. Amen The Melody Maker amen'd this post.
  10. #28
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    585
    Amen (Given)
    106
    Amen (Received)
    147
    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Your last sentence says it all. Friend, you are sitting under heretical teaching and as I mentioned before, it is unlikely that things will change if he isn't even willing to allow questions about it.
    Yes, and it is very sad; there are a lot of good people in that church. AND, he is aware of some of our questions that came after he talk because they are emailed to him and so far he is not responding to them. I'll give him a little more time.

    Thanks for your support.

  11. #29
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    slave & child of Christ
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    22,028
    Amen (Given)
    16633
    Amen (Received)
    10184
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Yes, and it is very sad; there are a lot of good people in that church. AND, he is aware of some of our questions that came after he talk because they are emailed to him and so far he is not responding to them. I'll give him a little more time.

    Thanks for your support.


    Continuing to pray.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  12. #30
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    766
    Amen (Given)
    2200
    Amen (Received)
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Sometimes a member of my Bible Study class will emai us with the thoughts of Richard Rohr. This is the latest one:

    Richard Rohr Meditation: At-one-ment, Not Atonement

    The Franciscan view of atonement theory is a prime example of our alternative orthodoxy. The Franciscan School was dissatisfied with the popular theological idea that Jesus came to Earth as a necessary sacrifice to appease an angry God. As human consciousness advances, more and more people cannot believe that God would demand Jesus’ blood as payment for our sins. It seems to be inevitable that our old logic needs to break up before we can begin to grow up.

    The most common reading of the Bible is that Jesus “died for our sins”—either to pay a debt to the devil (generally believed in the first millennium) or to pay a debt to God (proposed by Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century and holding sway for most of the second millennium). But even in the 13th century, Franciscan philosopher and theologian John Duns Scotus (1266–1308) agreed with neither of these understandings.

    Duns Scotus was not guided by the Temple language of debt, atonement, and blood sacrifice, which was understandably used by the Gospel writers and by Paul. Instead, he was inspired by the cosmic hymns in the first chapters of Colossians and Ephesians and the Prologue to John’s Gospel (1:1-18). While the Church has never rejected the Franciscan position, it has remained a minority view.

    The terrible and un-critiqued premise of many “substitutionary atonement theories” is that God demanded Jesus to be a blood sacrifice to “atone” for our sin-drenched humanity. As if God could need payment, and even a very violent transaction, to be able to love and accept God’s own children! These theories are based on retributive justice rather than the restorative justice that the prophets and Jesus taught.

    For Duns Scotus, the incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere Plan B or mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness; Jesus’ birth, life, and death had to be Plan A, the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were “chosen in Christ before the world was made” (Ephesians 1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the incarnation! Only perfect love and divine self-revelation could inspire God to come in human form. God never merely reacts, but supremely and freely acts—out of love.

    Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity. It did not need changing. Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God! God is not someone to be afraid of but is the Ground of Being and on our side. [1]
    The Franciscan minority position, our alternative orthodoxy, is basically saying that no atonement is necessary. Some call it “at-one-ment” instead of atonement. There is no bill to be paid; there is simply a union to be named. Jesus didn’t come to solve a problem; he came to reveal the true nature of God as Love.

    What do you think about this?
    This is the view associated in Catholic theology with the name of John Duns Scotus - info here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duns_Scotus

    The Scotist understanding of the Incarnation is part of mainstream Catholic theology. http://franciscans.beimler.org/Incar...rituality.html

    Scotism & Scotists: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13610b.htm

    Blessed John Duns Scotus: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05194a.htm

    That last article includes a survey of his ideas.

    See also: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/duns-scotus/

    Scotus did not say the Atonement was not necessary.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 03-16-2020 at 05:34 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •