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Wray: Trump campaign was illegally surveilled

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The election is just around the corner, Jim. And the watchers are watching his every move.

    Even better than that, God is still in control!
    And He was in the civil war, WW I, WW II, vietnam, Korea, the Tianemenn square massacre, and during Pol Pot's killing fields.

    That doesn't mean we sit back and watch with a callous lack of concern, or that we don't raise the alarm when things are going bad.
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 02-11-2020, 09:28 AM.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      The election is just around the corner, Jim. And the watchers are watching his every move.

      Even better than that, God is still in control!
      Indeed.
      Source: 2 Tim. 1:7

      For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

      © Copyright Original Source

      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        However he got it, it is in all our best interests for a president NOT to have the kind of Power Trump now enjoys. Do you want that power in the hands of a Elizabeth Warren or a Bernie Sanders? It is in your future, if not in 2020, sometime after.
        What power are you referring to, exactly? Because everything Trump has done is well within the law.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          And He was in the civil war, WW I, WW II, vietnam, Korea, the Tianemenn square massacre, and during Pol Pot's killing fields.

          That doesn't mean we sit back and watch with a callous lack of concern, or that we don't raise the alarm when things are going bad.
          dem_chicken_little_trump.jpg
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            I culled 'brain dead' after thinking about it.

            So CP, can you point me to where you have responded to such a demeaning characterization of yourself in a way that conveyed love and grace in any better fashion?

            Perhaps I can learn from you.
            Ah, the "I'm SO persecuted" ploy.

            You can find LOTS of posts from me, Jim, where I'm sharing prayer requests, joys, good things going on, fellowship, friendliness....

            You, on the other hand, preach this "fruit of the spirit" approach while acting like a crazy man, at war with your brothers and sisters in Christ, kinda like Saul on the road to Damascus before the encounter with Jesus.

            You have allowed the god of this world to steal your joy, rob you of any fellowship with fellow believers, and fill your heart with anger.

            I pray for you the prayer of David, that God will restore to you the Joy of your Salvation.

            (and, to answer your question - look how I've changed my conduct with JimL, a mocker of all things Christian, just as anti-Trump as you are, but we get along just fine -- perhaps that could be your model)
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Ah, the "I'm SO persecuted" ploy.
              Not at all, and you are demeaning me when I did not demean you. This is not a particularly good start ...

              You can find LOTS of posts from me, Jim, where I'm sharing prayer requests, joys, good things going on, fellowship, friendliness....
              Oh, you mean with people that treat you well and haven't just told you that you were functionally irrational and not worthy of conversation? That isn't much of an example either ...

              I'm looking for you to show me a better way to respond to being told you are a functional idiot. That is what you need to find CP ... I'll be glad to take instruction on that.

              You, on the other hand, preach this "fruit of the spirit" approach while acting like a crazy man, at war with your brothers and sisters in Christ, kinda like Saul on the road to Damascus before the encounter with Jesus.
              right ...

              You have allowed the god of this world to steal your joy, rob you of any fellowship with fellow believers, and fill your heart with anger.
              I see ...

              I pray for you the prayer of David, that God will restore to you the Joy of your Salvation.
              Ok ...

              (and, to answer your question - look how I've changed my conduct with JimL, a mocker of all things Christian, just as anti-Trump as you are, but we get along just fine -- perhaps that could be your model)
              I haven't really been tracking it per se. Is this recent? I certainly didn't notice much change in the thread I looked at where there were two or three pages of demeaning words in a row from you, Sparko, and rogue towards simplicio. But I just checked a couple of threads and you do seem to be not throwing insults out quite as often an JimL. Good on you!

              That wouldn't have anything to do with me constantly bringing it up would it?
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Anyone that doesn't recognize the increase in power Trump has gained in senate acquittal pushes him closer to the concept of "President as King "(which Barr supports) and has unbalanced the protections afforded by the separation of powers has left all sense behind. There is little point in a attempting to dialog with someone whose mind is in such a state.

                ---

                Dismissals of this sort, of those one disagrees with, are a dime a dozen and the real indicator of a flawed mental state. Demonizing those we disagree with is the first step to ignorance. Without the influence of contrary ideas, our own capacity to be corrected is lost and we are doomed to persist in grave error once we it has found us.
                Thanks Democrats!
                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  I haven't really been tracking it per se. Is this recent?
                  Been going on for several months, at least.

                  I certainly didn't notice much change in the thread I looked at where there were two or three pages of demeaning words in a row from you, Sparko, and rogue towards simplicio.
                  I tried being nice to him, and even indicated to him that I thought he appeared to be a good guy, but he just seems to be here to argue and cause division, so.... :

                  But I just checked a couple of threads and you do seem to be not throwing insults out quite as often an JimL. Good on you!
                  I'm actually being quite nice to him. No longer picking on his spelling, grammar, and ... um... even amen'd a post or two of his.

                  That wouldn't have anything to do with me constantly bringing it up would it?
                  Nope. I haven't seen much from you at all that's inspiring or uplifting. It was from me deciding I wouldn't talk to him the way I was if we were sitting down having a cup of coffee, so I started pretending we were sitting down having a cup of coffee.

                  He still tries to provoke me at times, but I keep my cool and do things like gently chide him about his promise to do better, and complimenting him on not calling people dummies and idiots and morons as often as he used to.

                  It's actually pretty easy.

                  Perhaps it's something you could use!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    No - I would not be willing to throw illegal search and seizure out the window.
                    Then you should condemn the illegal searches resulting from the FISA abuse case and demand justice for those who are being held on illegally obtained evidence.

                    Neither do I trust anyone under Trump's thumb to be able to make an objective determination on this issue since Trump has been actively engaged in obstruction over these issues for 3 years now.
                    Wholly irrelevant. The wiretaps and surveillances were illegal. Do you deny that?

                    Trump was acquitted in a sham trial by his GOP minions and now is out for revenge, and he has no limits and has been given significantly more power. What we will see unfolding from here out will look more like what happens in central or south america than what we are accustomed to seeing happen in our own government. He will be hampered some by what remains of our justice system and laws, but with the reduced oversight and effectiveness of the separation of powers, it likely won't be enough.
                    Those accusations do not address the point, Jim. Illegal surveillance is.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      To be 'portrayed' as something implies first one is not be the something itself.

                      I will admit it is possible mistakes were made. But the outcome of those mistakes is being exaggerated and there will not be anything resembling justice in the outcome.

                      First and foremost is the reality the rest of you keep sweeping under the rug:

                      Any person looking for access to the higher working of our government and its national security with the shady Russian contacts and interactions found in Trump's own background and the backgrounds of those he was hiring should have been investigated, thoroughly. Period. Not to do so would have been negligence in the first degree. If mistakes were made in negotiating the necessary response, they should be treated as such, not as criminal acts as they are by this administration.

                      Those pretending those connections did not present a clear and present danger to the US having been found in a top tier political candidate are themselves a danger to this country and its national security.
                      Investigating people does not give the government the right to break the law in obtaining information, Jim. Regardless of how bad you hate someone. They still have rights.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Investigating people does not give the government the right to break the law in obtaining information, Jim. Regardless of how bad you hate someone. They still have rights.
                        You need to address the points made and not pretend you can dismiss them because you have imagined you know why I made them. Otherwise you are just part of the attempt to sweep the point in bold under the rug.

                        The issue is not that I am saying it is ok to surveil someone illegally. What I'm saying is that the mistakes made in getting the warrants don't justify the response. And the attempt to portray the efforts to gain the warrents as unjustified is itself bogus to the point of being absurd.

                        I'll say it again and hopefully someone other the other side of the debate will have the guts to actually address the point made:

                        Any person looking for access to the higher working of our government and its national security with the shady Russian contacts and interactions found in Trump's own background and the backgrounds of those he was hiring should have been investigated, thoroughly. Period. Not to do so would have been negligence in the first degree. If mistakes were made in negotiating the necessary response, they should be treated as such, not as criminal acts as they are by this administration.

                        Those pretending those connections did not present a clear and present danger to the US having been found in a top tier political candidate are themselves a danger to this country and its national security.


                        That simple fact means the vindictive revenge against any one making process mistakes in securing the warrants is exactly that: revenge. It is inappropriate, vindictive and does not serve this nations best interests. We need our intelligence agents to believe it is in their best interests to pursue investigations like this, otherwise we are giving the Russians and other governments that ARE conducting covert operations on our soil additional power to conduct those operations.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Then you should condemn the illegal searches resulting from the FISA abuse case and demand justice for those who are being held on illegally obtained evidence.
                          I doubt it. I don't believe it was a case of FISA abuse. It was a case of not crossing all the T's and dotting all the i's.


                          Wholly irrelevant. The wiretaps and surveillances were illegal. Do you deny that?
                          Perhaps not technically. Technicalities render evidence inadmissable all the time, people make mistakes. But the surveillance was justified, and the warrant's would have been been legal except for the mistakes made in securing them. This is a case of the bad guy getting off because of a technical mistake and the good guys facing the firing squad over nothing more than an ill-tempered demagogue.


                          Those accusations do not address the point, Jim. Illegal surveillance is.
                          Nah - you can't pretend the hullabaloo over this isn't just Trump's 'offense' at being serveiled, especially since he had/has a lot to hide. This is just Trump empowered by the sham impeachment trial seeking his revenge. And with a purpose. He is sending messages - don't look to close or he'll do you in.

                          I am annoyed that so many mistakes have been made on these issues and that they have given Trump a pass and a place to seek revenge that he does not deserve, but I am more annoyed by the number of voices here that are willing to play along with the sham.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Been going on for several months, at least.



                            I tried being nice to him, and even indicated to him that I thought he appeared to be a good guy, but he just seems to be here to argue and cause division, so.... :



                            I'm actually being quite nice to him. No longer picking on his spelling, grammar, and ... um... even amen'd a post or two of his.



                            Nope. I haven't seen much from you at all that's inspiring or uplifting. It was from me deciding I wouldn't talk to him the way I was if we were sitting down having a cup of coffee, so I started pretending we were sitting down having a cup of coffee.

                            He still tries to provoke me at times, but I keep my cool and do things like gently chide him about his promise to do better, and complimenting him on not calling people dummies and idiots and morons as often as he used to.

                            It's actually pretty easy.

                            Perhaps it's something you could use!
                            Yeah - I didn't expect you to admit my pointing out your constant nastiness and name calling had anything to do with it. But that is ok, as long as the behavior is changing, that's reward enough for me.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                              You need to address the points made and not pretend you can dismiss them because you have imagined you know why I made them. Otherwise you are just part of the attempt to sweep the point in bold under the rug.
                              I'm sorry Jim, but I am not going to let you weasel out of this. I have asked you VERY pointed questions. They have NOTHING to do with Trump.

                              The issue is not that I am saying it is ok to surveil someone illegally.
                              Which you have continued to avoid answering directly.

                              What I'm saying is that the mistakes made in getting the warrants don't justify the response.
                              Completely false. "Process Mistakes" make a search and surveillance illegal. That's the law. Searches, and evidence gleaned from them, are routinely tossed by judges for that very thing, and they are never allowed just because the accused is a big orange meanie. The only reason you are trying to excuse it as NOT illegal is because you hate Trump. There is no other reason to put a different standard on evidence gathering.

                              And the attempt to portray the efforts to gain the warrents as unjustified is itself bogus to the point of being absurd.
                              Again, false. The FISA abuses have been proven to be illegal. Any attempt to excuse their illegality is absurd. You are directly contradicting the Justice and Executive Branches.

                              I'll say it again and hopefully someone other the other side of the debate will have the guts to actually address the point made:

                              Any person looking for access to the higher working of our government and its national security with the shady Russian contacts and interactions found in Trump's own background and the backgrounds of those he was hiring should have been investigated, thoroughly. Period. Not to do so would have been negligence in the first degree. If mistakes were made in negotiating the necessary response, they should be treated as such, not as criminal acts as they are by this administration.

                              Those pretending those connections did not present a clear and present danger to the US having been found in a top tier political candidate are themselves a danger to this country and its national security.


                              That simple fact means the vindictive revenge against any one making process mistakes in securing the warrants is exactly that: revenge. It is inappropriate, vindictive and does not serve this nations best interests. We need our intelligence agents to believe it is in their best interests to pursue investigations like this, otherwise we are giving the Russians and other governments that ARE conducting covert operations on our soil additional power to conduct those operations.
                              The point is invalid. Illegal search and seizure doesn't stop being a thing just because you are running for office.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              - Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                I'm sorry Jim, but I am not going to let you weasel out of this. I have asked you VERY pointed questions. They have NOTHING to do with Trump.



                                Which you have continued to avoid answering directly.



                                Completely false. "Process Mistakes" make a search and surveillance illegal. That's the law. Searches, and evidence gleaned from them, are routinely tossed by judges for that very thing, and they are never allowed just because the accused is a big orange meanie. The only reason you are trying to excuse it as NOT illegal is because you hate Trump. There is no other reason to put a different standard on evidence gathering.



                                Again, false. The FISA abuses have been proven to be illegal. Any attempt to excuse their illegality is absurd. You are directly contradicting the Justice and Executive Branches.



                                The point is invalid. Illegal search and seizure doesn't stop being a thing just because you are running for office.
                                Nah - these are issues that would be overlooked if they didn't involve Trump and if he was not empowered to exert pressure on the justice system to make examples of the people involved.

                                And you can preach all you want. but the Trump 'supporters' like yourself have made so many excuses for Trump it will be a very, very, very long time before you've recovered enough moral authority to have anything like a right to do so. The compromises in morality and the law made on behalf of Trump here make these FISA 'abuses' look by comparison like someone accidentally walking out of a store with the pen they used to sign their visa receipt.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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