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Thread: Esther, Vashti complementarianism, and teaching from the bible.

  1. #31
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    If the husband loves his wife as Christ loves his church, ready to even lay down his life for her, what do you think the answer to your question is?
    I don't know, mossrose. If the father loves his children as Christ loves his church, or as the Father in heaven loves his children, then should he spank the little urchins? (oh wait, wherever did I find that?) Since there is the idea of chastisement, visiting calamities upon creatures, the example is not so clear cut, and forms a basis for an apologetic which leaves open that possibility. Christ loves his church, yet that church has not been sheltered, it supplied the martyrs who suffered.

  2. #32
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I don't know, mossrose. If the father loves his children as Christ loves his church, or as the Father in heaven loves his children, then should he spank the little urchins? (oh wait, wherever did I find that?) Since there is the idea of chastisement, visiting calamities upon creatures, the example is not so clear cut, and forms a basis for an apologetic which leaves open that possibility. Christ loves his church, yet that church has not been sheltered, it supplied the martyrs who suffered.
    Since you already stated in the post that I quoted that you think scripture supports the discipline of children by their parents, (and I will add that such discipline has to be done in a loving way without abuse), I was addressing your question about husbands using force to discipline their wives.

    Your question has been answered according to scripture.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  3. Amen Cow Poke, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  4. #33
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Cool! Some see those household rules as permitting the use of physical force on the correction of children. Yes, I do think that it allows spanking children. But some Christians have seen the same verses, and decided that it allowed for force in correcting the behavior of wayward wives. No, I do not think it allows for spanking the wife.

    Combine that with the commonly accepted idea of male headship, my question is do those preclude the use of force in correcting the wife? Does the bible preclude the use of force in training up children?
    My job was to supply support for the specific instructions in the NT. Your strange gleaning and raising the issue of physical force in response to the scriptures I provided is nonsensical to me. 2 Peter 3-16-18 is therefore my final response to you.

    16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [g]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

    17 Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind].

    18 But grow in grace (undeserved favor, spiritual strength) and [h]recognition and knowledge and understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him [be] glory (honor, majesty, and splendor) both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (so be it)!

  5. Amen mossrose, Cow Poke, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  6. #34
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esther View Post
    My job was to supply support for the specific instructions in the NT. Your strange gleaning and raising the issue of physical force in response to the scriptures I provided is nonsensical to me. 2 Peter 3-16-18 is therefore my final response to you.

    16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own [g]utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.

    17 Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind].

    18 But grow in grace (undeserved favor, spiritual strength) and [h]recognition and knowledge and understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him [be] glory (honor, majesty, and splendor) both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (so be it)!
    It may seem nonsensical to you, but there are Christians who do argue, from scripture, for ideas quite different from you. And some of those ideas support abuse.

    The OP drew on differing views on the Book of Esther, and its impact on how Christians do use it as a teaching tool on family, on womanhood, and even male headship.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esther View Post
    The New Testament has specific instructions for households. Why bother to look for maybe models in the OT is my thought.
    Oh noes!!! Simplicio was complaining about Esther and she shows up on Theologyweb!!!

    This gonna be good!

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Oh noes!!! Simplicio was complaining about Esther and she shows up on Theologyweb!!!

    This gonna be good!
    Now we just need Vashti to weigh in.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

  9. #37
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    So I just re-read the book of Esther. There is nothing in it about male headship. The King of Persia was a despot. Vashti refused to be humiliated by him and she was banished. The King then lined up all of the young girls and chose Esther as her replacement. She was bold enough to stand up to the King and actually manipulated him into saving the Jews. Not very submissive at all.

    Have you bothered to read the book of Esther, Simplicio, or are you just going by something you read on a website somewhere? It is not an example of submissiveness or complementarianism in the least.

  10. Amen Christianbookworm, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  11. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    So I just re-read the book of Esther. There is nothing in it about male headship. The King of Persia was a despot. Vashti refused to be humiliated by him and she was banished. The King then lined up all of the young girls and chose Esther as her replacement. She was bold enough to stand up to the King and actually manipulated him into saving the Jews. Not very submissive at all.

    Have you bothered to read the book of Esther, Simplicio, or are you just going by something you read on a website somewhere? It is not an example of submissiveness or complementarianism in the least.
    The last verse of the first chapter, the king passed a decree about every man is the lord of his house. Might want to read the book again because it comes up again. Hey, don't blame me for the arguments made by evangelicals.

    The comments a while back the discussion on Beth Moore led me to look more closely at her writings and arguments, ideas she opposes and supports, so I read some of the stuff out there which is pretty popular. Many evangelical inspirational writers have peered into Esther and seen things there about the roles of women......even submissiveness and complementarianism.

    You sound like you agree with Beth Moore here.

  12. #39
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    The last verse of the first chapter, the king passed a decree about every man is the lord of his house. Might want to read the book again because it comes up again. Hey, don't blame me for the arguments made by evangelicals.

    The comments a while back the discussion on Beth Moore led me to look more closely at her writings and arguments, ideas she opposes and supports, so I read some of the stuff out there which is pretty popular. Many evangelical inspirational writers have peered into Esther and seen things there about the roles of women......even submissiveness and complementarianism.

    You sound like you agree with Beth Moore here.
    King Ahasuerus is a tyrant and despot. He is not presented as a role model in this book. Pro Tip: Don't be like King Ahasuerus.

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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    King Ahasuerus is a tyrant and despot. He is not presented as a role model in this book. Pro Tip: Don't be like King Ahasuerus.
    He created the Bush beer dynasty, no?
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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