Page 5 of 17 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 169

Thread: Sanders: Communism Light...

  1. #41
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    26,794
    Amen (Given)
    2030
    Amen (Received)
    5576
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    And how would you describe capitalism?
    The free exchange of goods.

    Marx wrote his philosophy in the nineteenth century, seeing the arc of capitalism over the previous century. And many others saw the inherent weaknesses of capitalism as a system. Even the weakness of a capitalist system within a democratic political system.
    Do you know of any other system that has lifted more people out of poverty? Look at Asia over the last 20 years.


    Failure, ignorance, envy, and misery are not just socialist problems, many looked at capitalism and saw all those same things.
    Free markets are a-moral. Socialism on the other hand must covet what others have earned.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  2. Amen Sparko, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  3. #42
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,400
    Amen (Given)
    2023
    Amen (Received)
    1625
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    The free exchange of goods.

    Do you know of any other system that has lifted more people out of poverty? Look at Asia over the last 20 years.
    Yes, democratic socialism, and that's the point. Capitalism and the free exchange of goods is not distinct from democratic socialism, they exist together as parts of one and the same system.



    Free markets are a-moral. Socialism on the other hand must covet what others have earned.
    If complete free market capitalism is a-moral then so too are the people that support that economic system a-moral.

  4. #43
    tWebber
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,770
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, democratic socialism, and that's the point. Capitalism and the free exchange of goods is not distinct from democratic socialism, they exist together as parts of one and the same system.




    If complete free market capitalism is a-moral then so too are the people that support that economic system a-moral.
    I will write it again: Capitalism .... is not distinct from democratic socialism. Which also means democratic socialism is compatible with capitalism.

    A-moral or immoral? I think, following the argument of Reinhold Niebuhr in Moral man, Immoral Society that collectively, the group can be immoral while the members, individually, are moral. This view also aligns with the Christian concept of the fallen nature of man (original sin). (I doubt you accept that, but Christians might accept an original sin argument)

    I am capitalist, but do not see the system as amoral, rather fear its inherent immorality. At each moment, we, as a society must be aware of the pitfalls of the free market. One good example is whether we should allow the free market to work within the banking system. I think it is the restrictive and anti- lassez faire regulation which keeps us from falling into a financial abyss. And I don't think that view is pessimistic, rather I am an optimist on the American economy.

  5. #44
    tWebber seer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    New England
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    26,794
    Amen (Given)
    2030
    Amen (Received)
    5576
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Yes, democratic socialism, and that's the point. Capitalism and the free exchange of goods is not distinct from democratic socialism, they exist together as parts of one and the same system.

    If complete free market capitalism is a-moral then so too are the people that support that economic system a-moral.
    Jim amoral is not immoral, it means:

    not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.

    I sell you my cow, and as long as I do not cheat you, there is nothing moral about the transaction. Democratic socialism is immoral however if you use the force of law to take what I earned and give it to another who has not earned it.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqgC1tqifV8

  6. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #45
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Agnostic
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    16,400
    Amen (Given)
    2023
    Amen (Received)
    1625
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I will write it again: Capitalism .... is not distinct from democratic socialism. Which also means democratic socialism is compatible with capitalism.

    A-moral or immoral? I think, following the argument of Reinhold Niebuhr in Moral man, Immoral Society that collectively, the group can be immoral while the members, individually, are moral. This view also aligns with the Christian concept of the fallen nature of man (original sin). (I doubt you accept that, but Christians might accept an original sin argument)
    I agree, people can be both supporters of complete capitalism and still be moral, but only if they're ignorant as to what that means to the lives many people. Good and evil, the fallen nature of man, in my opinion, is just a matter our ignorance.
    I am capitalist, but do not see the system as amoral, rather fear its inherent immorality. At each moment, we, as a society must be aware of the pitfalls of the free market. One good example is whether we should allow the free market to work within the banking system. I think it is the restrictive and anti- lassez faire regulation which keeps us from falling into a financial abyss. And I don't think that view is pessimistic, rather I am an optimist on the American economy.
    If what you mean is that the free market, if it is to be moral, must needs be regulated, then I agree.

  8. #46
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    52,782
    Amen (Given)
    5370
    Amen (Received)
    23308
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    And well they should have.


    Oh they proved it all right, but the jury was biased, and when he realized he could get away with it, he went right back at it.


    No he isn't, and no he didn't. Get a grip.
    I posted the videos JimL.


  9. #47
    tWebber
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,770
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    I agree, people can be both supporters of complete capitalism and still be moral, but only if they're ignorant as to what that means to the lives many people. Good and evil, the fallen nature of man, in my opinion, is just a matter our ignorance.

    If what you mean is that the free market, if it is to be moral, must needs be regulated, then I agree.
    I assume you mean Laissez faire when you say "complete capitalism", but capitalist systems can be very moral, as can the democratic socialism. It depends how it is structured, guided.

    At one time, many saw the problems of child labor etc of nineteenth century capitalism as unavoidable. But we did manage to squelch the abuses and still maintain a captialist system. I do notice that you reject notions of good and evil, yet I suspect that you also recognize some things as good, other things as evil.

    I think one of the problems of discussing a topic of capitalism vs socialism, some define the filling of pot holes on my street as socialism since money is coercively taken from others for my needs of street repair. But rural electrification under FDR finally brought electricity to large swaths of the nation, a federal highway system was filled out under Eisenhower, and the GI Bill under Truman educated many men. I see none of those as especially socialist, and I think they were wise moves, albeit expensive moves. And each of those made this country stronger.

  10. #48
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    New Zealand
    Faith
    Atheist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    9,440
    Amen (Given)
    2814
    Amen (Received)
    1790
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And how would you describe capitalism?
    The free exchange of goods.
    Plenty of socialist systems keep a free exchange of goods.

    Do you know of any other system that has lifted more people out of poverty? Look at Asia over the last 20 years.
    Technological development has lifted people out of poverty. Increasing technological efficiency lets us make more stuff with less human effort, so instead of toiling all day and having almost enough to survive by the end of it, we end up with heaps of stuff for the same amount of labor. Farming, for example, is now about 150x more efficient with regard to total food produced from the same labor inputs, as compared to millennia ago. So it's been a ~150x multiplier in productivity. And that will continue to increase over time, as automation etc continues to increase the amount of goods produced from the same day's human labor.

    The free market, by contrast, is a method of distribution of goods. If the distribution method is perfectly efficient, then all goods that exist are distributed among people without loss. So it's a 1x multiplier at perfect efficiency (and a 0x at maximal inefficiency).

    So I would say Asia, like Europe before it, was lifted out of poverty due to advancing technology. The free market had very little to do with it.

    Free markets are a-moral. Socialism on the other hand must covet what others have earned.

    Wow.

  11. #49
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    58,049
    Amen (Given)
    1207
    Amen (Received)
    21222
    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    And well they should have.


    Oh they proved it all right, but the jury was biased, and when he realized he could get away with it, he went right back at it.


    No he isn't, and no he didn't. Get a grip.
    Please explain exactly how Mueller and his merry band of Trump-hating Hillary-supporting assistants were biased in any way except against Trump.


    Keep in mind it was them who cleared Trump of collusion.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  12. #50
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Southeastern U.S. of A.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    58,049
    Amen (Given)
    1207
    Amen (Received)
    21222
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    "They" did impeach him and for good reason.

    And Mueller made clear that Russia meddled in the 2016 election. Further: "The U.S. Senate’s Select Committee on Intelligence released Volume 1 of its report on Russian Active Measures Campaigns and Interference in the 2016 U.S. Election is as dark as it gets. The report summarily states that “the Russian government directed extensive activity, beginning in at least 2014 and carrying into at least 2017, against U.S. election infrastructure at the state and local level.”

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevean.../#7be346b01ff2



    He is a self-proclaimed Democratic Socialist - a position embraced by many countries of the Free World, including my own Australia with it's universal health care, subsidized education and generous welfare provisions.
    Russia (and a whole slew of countries) have been meddling with our elections for longer than any of us (save mossy) have been alive.

    And Sanders is nothing like the genteel European Democrat Socialists. Read what he has been proposing over the years. His model isn't Denmark but rather Cuba. If he were younger I have little doubt he'd be out there rioting with antifa.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •