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Thread: Sanders: Communism Light...

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Sanders: Communism Light...

    The nose under the tent...

    Share Corporate Wealth with Workers. Under this plan, corporations with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be required to provide at least 2 percent of stock to their workers every year until the company is at least 20 percent owned by employees. This will be done through the issuing of new shares and the establishment of Democratic Employee Ownership Funds.

    https://berniesanders.com/issues/cor...and-democracy/
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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    I don't particularly have a problem with that. The notion of self enrichment at the expense of workers is a biblical theme and the idea of pushback at the small rate of 2% seems reasonable enough. (A friend of mine recently showed me a chart that compared the increase of corporate profits with wage stagnation in the wake of the tax cuts; I honestly don't think God approves of that.)
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 02-20-2020 at 10:28 AM.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    The problem is you give your employees stock, then they leave but still have the stock. It is like a leaking bucket. Pretty soon a company has given away way more than 20% and many of the people are not even employees.


    And that is besides the point that it is not the government's property to give away. Forcing a business to give ownership away is indeed "communism"


    And publicly owned companies are already owned by public stockholders who don't want their share's value being constantly diluted by the company creating more shares to give away, while the rest of us have to pay for them. The stock prices will drop, the company could even go bankrupt.

  4. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    The problem is you give your employees stock, then they leave but still have the stock. It is like a leaking bucket. Pretty soon a company has given away way more than 20% and many of the people are not even employees.
    This sort of pushback is reasonable. 401K plans that require several years of tenure to touch seem like a better way of rewarding employees.

    Calling something "communism" does not convince me to automatically reject a proposal, though. I'm willing to entertain ideas based on their own merits.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    This sort of pushback is reasonable. 401K plans that require several years of tenure to touch seem like a better way of rewarding employees.

    Calling something "communism" does not convince me to automatically reject a proposal, though. I'm willing to entertain ideas based on their own merits.
    Some companies who do give stock to employees have things in place so the employees can't sell the stock, and have to return it if they leave (usually paid out at street value of the stock at the time). If they retire, it becomes theirs to do with as they wish. So it's kind of like a 401K but instead of giving them actual money, they give them (nonvoting) stock - held in a kind of 401K fund they can't actually touch. I worked at a company that did that and it was not very good at all. Instead of real money, all you have is stock, and if your company fails, you lose everything. Much better to have a regular 401K that retains the value based on actual investments and such.

    My fear is that if companies HAD to do that, they would stop paying into 401Ks matching funds, or do any profit sharing. Creating more stock to just hand out is cheaper.

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Under this plan, corporations with at least $100 million in annual revenue, corporations with at least $100 million in balance sheet total, and all publicly traded companies will be required to provide at least 2 percent of stock to their workers every year until the company is at least 20 percent owned by employees.
    In communism, the government owns and operates all companies. Which part of the above involved government ownership of companies?

    Worker owned companies are called co-operatives. Which is something completely different.

    Though 20% worker ownership falls vastly short of being a cooperative. So it isn't even that. It's just a relatively pointless and ineffectual employee share scheme, like a huge proportion of companies already do, including multiple companies I've worked at and at least one company Sparko has from the sounds of it.

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    In communism, the government owns and operates all companies. Which part of the above involved government ownership of companies?

    Worker owned companies are called co-operatives. Which is something completely different.

    Though 20% worker ownership falls vastly short of being a cooperative. So it isn't even that. It's just a relatively pointless and ineffectual employee share scheme, like a huge proportion of companies already do, including multiple companies I've worked at and at least one company Sparko has from the sounds of it.
    It was a way for the company to give us something that didn't cost them anything but they could point to it as a "benefit" - It was worthless and the company eventually went bankrupt a few years later. I luckily had left before then. But I think I only got a few thousand in my 401K/Stock options plan which was mostly my own donations.

  9. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    The nose under the tent...
    It's really strange how we live in a society of Russia paranoia, where one political side can accuse the potus of being a traitor and Russian asset, yet the guy that actually visited the Soviet Union during its hay day of socialism, commended their system and culture, is a self-avowed socialist himself, somehow gets off scot free
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  11. Amen Sparko, RumTumTugger, Littlejoe amen'd this post.
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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Don’t be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he’s a diehard communist

    As polls tighten and self-described socialist Bernie Sanders looks more like a serious contender than a novelty candidate for president, the liberal media elite have suddenly stopped calling him socialist. He’s now cleaned up as a “progressive” or “pragmatist.”

    But he’s not even a socialist. He’s a communist.

    Mainstreaming Sanders requires whitewashing his radical pro-communist past. It won’t be easy to do.

    If Sanders were vying for a Cabinet post, he’d never pass an FBI background check. There’d be too many subversive red flags popping up in his file. He was a communist collaborator during the height of the Cold War.

    Rewind to 1964.

    While attending the University of Chicago, Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA. He also organized for a communist front, the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

    After graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, where he headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda. There, he produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”

    This subversive hero of Sanders, denounced even by liberal Democrats as a “traitor,” bashed “the barons of Wall Street” and hailed the “triumphant” Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

    “Those Russian comrades of ours have made greater sacrifices, have suffered more, and have shed more heroic blood than any like number of men and women anywhere on Earth,” Debs proclaimed. “They have laid the foundation of the first real democracy that ever drew the breath of life in this world.”

    In a 1918 speech in Canton, Ohio, Debs reaffirmed his solidarity with Lenin and Trotsky, despite clear evidence of their violent plunder and treachery.

    Sanders still hangs a portrait of Debs on the wall in his Senate office.

    more at:

    https://nypost.com/2016/01/16/dont-b...ard-communist/

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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Don’t be fooled by Bernie Sanders — he’s a diehard communist

    As polls tighten and self-described socialist Bernie Sanders looks more like a serious contender than a novelty candidate for president, the liberal media elite have suddenly stopped calling him socialist. He’s now cleaned up as a “progressive” or “pragmatist.”

    But he’s not even a socialist. He’s a communist.

    Mainstreaming Sanders requires whitewashing his radical pro-communist past. It won’t be easy to do.

    If Sanders were vying for a Cabinet post, he’d never pass an FBI background check. There’d be too many subversive red flags popping up in his file. He was a communist collaborator during the height of the Cold War.

    Rewind to 1964.

    While attending the University of Chicago, Sanders joined the Young People’s Socialist League, the youth wing of the Socialist Party USA. He also organized for a communist front, the United Packinghouse Workers Union, which at the time was under investigation by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

    After graduating with a political science degree, Sanders moved to Vermont, where he headed the American People’s History Society, an organ for Marxist propaganda. There, he produced a glowing documentary on the life of socialist revolutionary Eugene Debs, who was jailed for espionage during the Red Scare and hailed by the Bolsheviks as “America’s greatest Marxist.”

    This subversive hero of Sanders, denounced even by liberal Democrats as a “traitor,” bashed “the barons of Wall Street” and hailed the “triumphant” Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

    “Those Russian comrades of ours have made greater sacrifices, have suffered more, and have shed more heroic blood than any like number of men and women anywhere on Earth,” Debs proclaimed. “They have laid the foundation of the first real democracy that ever drew the breath of life in this world.”

    In a 1918 speech in Canton, Ohio, Debs reaffirmed his solidarity with Lenin and Trotsky, despite clear evidence of their violent plunder and treachery.

    Sanders still hangs a portrait of Debs on the wall in his Senate office.

    more at:

    https://nypost.com/2016/01/16/dont-b...ard-communist/
    When he ran for Governor of Vermont as a protest candidate for the socialist Liberty Union Party back in 1972, Sanders proclaimed "I don't mind people coming up and calling me a communist."

    A decade later during his time as mayor of Burlington he supported and campaigned for the communist Socialist Workers Party (SWP) in the 1980 and 1984 presidential campaigns, maintaining a close relationship with its senior members and was even investigated by the FBI for his ties to the Marxist group.

    Keep in mind, critics and supporters alike agree that Sanders has deviated very little over the years concerning his political beliefs.

    And of course he picked Moscow as his choice of locations to Honeymoon in back during the Cold War.

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