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Thread: More secular proof of Jesus' existence?

  1. #51
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    There is even one place where he uses the word "alma" and then in parenthesis mentions it's the hebrew word for virgin.
    He did not know his Hebrew either then.

    Almah means a young woman. Bethulah is the Hebrew for virgin.

    However, it should be noted that in both the Greek and Hebrew parlance of the Jews the term “virgin” was used flexibly. It was certainly not confined to denoting men and women without experience of sexual intercourse.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  2. #52
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    He did not know his Hebrew either then.

    Almah means a young woman. Bethulah is the Hebrew for virgin.

    However, it should be noted that in both the Greek and Hebrew parlance of the Jews the term “virgin” was used flexibly. It was certainly not confined to denoting men and women without experience of sexual intercourse.
    Source: TWOT

    Since bĕtûlâ is used many times in the OT as a specific word for “virgin,” it seems reasonable to consider that the feminine form of this word ["almah"] is not a technical word for a virgin but represents a young woman, one of whose characteristics is virginity. This is borne out by the fact that the LXX translates it as parthenos in two of its seven occurrences, and that its use in Isa 7:14 was quoted to Joseph by the angel as a prediction of the virgin birth.

    Allan A. Macrae, “1630 עלם,” ed. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 672.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So "almah" does seem to imply virginity.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #53
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Source: TWOT

    Since bĕtûlâ is used many times in the OT as a specific word for “virgin,” it seems reasonable to consider that the feminine form of this word ["almah"] is not a technical word for a virgin but represents a young woman, one of whose characteristics is virginity. This is borne out by the fact that the LXX translates it as parthenos in two of its seven occurrences, and that its use in Isa 7:14 was quoted to Joseph by the angel as a prediction of the virgin birth.

    Allan A. Macrae, “1630 עלם,” ed. R. Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago: Moody Press, 1999), 672.

    © Copyright Original Source



    So "almah" does seem to imply virginity.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Purely for information.


    In Hebrew, biblical and rabbinic, the term bethulah can indicate virgo intacta. The Pentateuch thus describes Rebecca as a very pretty girl, a virgin whom no man has known. The rabbis also explain that a virgin is a woman who has never had sexual intercourse.

    Nevertheless, another well-established usage of bethulah associates virginity, not with absence of sexual experience, but with an inability to conceive. A virgin is a girl who has not yet attained puberty. This sort of “virginity” ends, not with intercourse, but with menstruation.

    Asking “Who is a virgin?” the two earliest rabbinic codes, the Mishnah and the Tosephta, answer:

    “Whoever has never seen blood even though she is married.”

    The Tosephta, reflecting the teaching of the late 1st century CE. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus adds:

    I call a virgin whoever has not seen blood, even though she is married and has had children, until she has seen the first show.”

    The Palestinian Talmud goes even further:

    Who is a virgin? According to the Mishnah, whoever has never seen blood even though she is married. – She is said to be a virgin in respect of menstruation but not a virgin in respect of the token of virginity. Sometimes she is a virgin in the latter respect, but not a virgin in respect of menstruation.

    It was possible, the evidence shows, for a girl to marry and cohabit with her husband before reaching puberty. In fact, it appears to have happened often enough to give rise to a dispute between the two leading rabbinic schools of the 1st century CE, on the subject of whether a bloodstain on the wedding night of a minor [i.e. a virgin in respect of menstruation] should be attributed to the rupture of the hymen or to her first period.

    The more rigorous House of Shammai settled for the first alternative for the first four nights only. The House of Hillel decided similarly but until the healing of the wound.

    Another consequence of such a state of affairs was that a girl could conceive while still a “virgin” in respect of menstruation, i.e. at the moment of her first ovulation. She could thus become a “virgin mother” of several children!
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  4. #54
    tWebber
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    The rabbinic writings come too late to be good commentaries on scriptures. Anything post-Messianic is liable to be altered to make the fulfilled Messianic prophecies less apparent. There is plenty of incentive to cover-up the message of the Messiah, after the fact.

  5. #55
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    He did not know his Hebrew either then.

    Almah means a young woman. Bethulah is the Hebrew for virgin.

    However, it should be noted that in both the Greek and Hebrew parlance of the Jews the term “virgin” was used flexibly. It was certainly not confined to denoting men and women without experience of sexual intercourse.
    Good point. But, it could be like in English where we sometimes use the word "maiden" to mean "virgin." but the technical meaning of "maiden" is just "young girl."

    My point was that this guy is a phony because if he was genuinely translating a letter from Hebrew, why would he leave a Hebrew word in the translation instead of just translating it? The whole thing is so obviously a fake for many reasons.

  6. #56
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Good point. But, it could be like in English where we sometimes use the word "maiden" to mean "virgin." but the technical meaning of "maiden" is just "young girl."

    My point was that this guy is a phony because if he was genuinely translating a letter from Hebrew, why would he leave a Hebrew word in the translation instead of just translating it? The whole thing is so obviously a fake for many reasons.
    Oh I agree that one finds many "wackos" around, particularly when it comes to religion.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

  7. #57
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Oh I agree that one finds many "wackos" around, particularly when it comes to religion.
    Yeah we tend to get a lot of nutty atheists around here who seem to have OCD and it seems their entire lives revolve around something they claim they don't even believe in.

  8. #58
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Yeah we tend to get a lot of nutty atheists around here who seem to have OCD and it seems their entire lives revolve around something they claim they don't even believe in.
    Of course the dispassionate and critical historical analysis of texts and the socio-historical context in which they were composed is altogether something quite different.

    Not being a believer does not prevent an individual having an academic interest in the history and comparative study of religions.
    "Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies."

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