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Thread: More secular proof of Jesus' existence?

  1. #41
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    AFAICS Paul was concerned about what people were being told (speaking was, after all, the primary means of communication back then). IIRC the first concern with writings comes from 2 Peter, which warns of people misinterpreting Paul's words, not forgery.
    And there is of course Rev. 22:18-19 which is an admonishment against altering the text of that particular book

    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

    I'm always still in trouble again

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  2. #42
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I put "feel" in quotes for a reason. Because so far, that's all you got. Like your reasoning above. You don't think he was good enough to have forged the letter. Why not? I read it. It doesn't look all that genuine to me. It reads like a 19th century man telling a story. Whether you think the chapter/verse things line up or not, the fact that he is even referring to any such divisions is anachronistic. There is even one place where he uses the word "alma" and then in parenthesis mentions it's the hebrew word for virgin. If he was translating a genuine letter why would he not just translate that word along with all the other words? Why would you leave that in Hebrew and then explain it?

    Nothing I can say will change your mind at this point. You seem invested in believing it for some odd reason. Why?
    I'm not sure that the parenthesis throughout wasn't added by the translator of the letter. But if not, then yeah, Caiaphas most likely would not have added that.

    I just think it's neat to find extrabiblical sources that historically align with the gospels. No other particular reason other than that.
    Last edited by seanD; 02-25-2020 at 10:57 AM.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  3. #43
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    I'm not sure that the parenthesis throughout wasn't added by the translator of the letter. But if not, then yeah, Caiaphas most likely would not have added that.

    I just think it's neat to find extrabiblical sources that historically align with the gospels. No other particular reason other than that.
    I meant the translator. Why didn't he just translate it like he did all the rest of the document?

  4. #44
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I meant the translator. Why didn't he just translate it like he did all the rest of the document?
    The parenthesis is an oddity for sure.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  5. #45
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    I just think it's neat to find extrabiblical sources that historically align with the gospels. No other particular reason other than that.
    It's not an "extrabiblical source"; it's a forgery intended to historically align with the gospels.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  6. #46
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    It's not an "extrabiblical source"; it's a forgery intended to historically align with the gospels.
    Only some of the material doesn't perfectly align with the gospels. There are some conflicts. The second letter of Caiaphas aligns with the gospels almost ridiculously so.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  7. #47
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    The parenthesis is an oddity for sure.
    This thread reminds me of an old joke.

    A man in the psychiatric ward thinks he is dead. The psychiatrist tries to convince him he isn't.

    "Do dead men feel pain?" asks the doctor

    "Of course not!" says the patient.

    The doctor sticks him with a needle.

    "Ow!!" says the patient.

    "See, you aren't dead! You felt pain!" says the doctor.

    "Well, what do you know! Dead people CAN feel pain!" exclaims the patient.

  8. #48
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    This thread reminds me of an old joke.

    A man in the psychiatric ward thinks he is dead. The psychiatrist tries to convince him he isn't.

    "Do dead men feel pain?" asks the doctor

    "Of course not!" says the patient.

    The doctor sticks him with a needle.

    "Ow!!" says the patient.

    "See, you aren't dead! You felt pain!" says the doctor.

    "Well, what do you know! Dead people CAN feel pain!" exclaims the patient.
    Whatever, man. Back at ya.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  9. #49
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Only some of the material doesn't perfectly align with the gospels. There are some conflicts. The second letter of Caiaphas aligns with the gospels almost ridiculously so.
    Sure. Impious forgers (or ignorant pious forgers, or heretical pious forgers) are likely to include some conflicts. In the case of impious forgers, they're looking to sow doubt on the biblical narrative. In the case of heretical forgers, they're looking to bolster their heresy.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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  10. Amen seanD amen'd this post.
  11. #50
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Sure. Impious forgers (or ignorant pious forgers, or heretical pious forgers) are likely to include some conflicts. In the case of impious forgers, they're looking to sow doubt on the biblical narrative. In the case of heretical forgers, they're looking to bolster their heresy.
    I don't think Mahan was that capable or that clever. You're giving his wit the benefit of the doubt. Fair enough.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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