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sex and lack of scandal

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  • sex and lack of scandal

    George Washington likely had a ....dalliance with his friend's wife, Jefferson had his paramour, Warren G Harding waxed poetic over his ...... ummm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

    ....jerry. Bill Clinton was the first President to have been outed.

    Today, we no longer pass over such things in silence. Not sure what this says about us and our culture. MLK had affairs, and it did not really make news until fairly recently.

    Should affairs of the distant past be reported? Does it make a difference?

  • #2
    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
    Should affairs of the distant past be reported? Does it make a difference?
    Not to them.

    Comment


    • #3
      I can still remember when Gary Hart's political career was ended simply over the suggestion that he might be having an affair. That seems like ages ago. Of course that was before the Democrats rallied around serial rapist Bill Clinton with cries of "It's just sex!" and saying that we were all busy bodies and perverts if we paid any attention to it.

      As for the sins of people in history, all that really tells us is that they're human with all the imperfections that implies. I really don't know why an affair is seen as a particularly great sin compared to all the other moral failings a person might have.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
        Not to them.
        I think that the affairs do make a difference to them. They generally go to great lengths to conceal the affair. While Harding wrote odes to Jerry, he was also paying for the maintenance of his love child. It worked, it was not until Harding's death and the child support dried up did the mother write her tell all book.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          I think that the affairs did make a difference to them.
          Fixed.

          When folks preserve information that's not to be released until after their deaths, or some years after their deaths, it's an acknowledgment first that they don't want to live through the fallout, second that, being dead, there's no fallout anymore, and last that posterity has a right to the unvarnished truths hidden from their contemporaries.

          But let's be clear. You're looking for interaction on sexual scandals involving presidential figures who are still among the living, and presumably about the NDAs and payoffs by the current occupant. With Trump, we have a special case. He tweets, and speaks, with wild abandon. NDAs presumably shield both parties, and Trump has been anything but silent on his side. That's a compelling argument for the same freedom for the other side, and to the extent reputations have been damaged, for litigation to make the injured parties whole.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I can still remember when Gary Hart's political career was ended simply over the suggestion that he might be having an affair. That seems like ages ago. Of course that was before the Democrats rallied around serial rapist Bill Clinton with cries of "It's just sex!" and saying that we were all busy bodies and perverts if we paid any attention to it.

            As for the sins of people in history, all that really tells us is that they're human with all the imperfections that implies. I really don't know why an affair is seen as a particularly great sin compared to all the other moral failings a person might have.
            While for some his affair was the big deal what many forget (or have been falsely informed), it wasn't for having an affair that he was impeached. Instead it was for lying under oath (perjury) and trying to get others to do so as well (suborning perjury).

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
              Fixed.

              When folks preserve information that's not to be released until after their deaths, or some years after their deaths, it's an acknowledgment first that they don't want to live through the fallout, second that, being dead, there's no fallout anymore, and last that posterity has a right to the unvarnished truths hidden from their contemporaries.

              But let's be clear. You're looking for interaction on sexual scandals involving presidential figures who are still among the living, and presumably about the NDAs and payoffs by the current occupant. With Trump, we have a special case. He tweets, and speaks, with wild abandon. NDAs presumably shield both parties, and Trump has been anything but silent on his side. That's a compelling argument for the same freedom for the other side, and to the extent reputations have been damaged, for litigation to make the injured parties whole.
              The one point you left out is the idea of historical legacy. I think all presidents look on their legacy and try to steer it, not just out of vanity but also to continue their initiatives or policies. FDR wanted his New Deal programs to continue, the Republicans from the progressive era wanted their ideas to carry on beyond their administration. The scandal would, and does, overshadow any policy discussion.

              Washington was seen as a great man of history within his lifetime; no one had any such illusion about Harding. But both men had contemporaries actively shielding and squashing any rumors. How great a role did any such potential sex scandal play in their administrations? It is unlikely the Marilyn Monroe played any role in JFK's policies, Harding's dalliances contributed to Teapot Dome, FDR's affairs affected WWII or New Deal policies, Eisenhower's paramour affected the Allied European war effort. If Washington carried on, his lover never left any record, Eisenhower's lover certainly did, and Harding's lover only revealed the secret when child support dried up.

              I underlined the one point I disagreed with, not sure many actually have an historians viewpoint. The NDA (nondisclosure agreement) merely hides facts which will come out anyway. Harding's papers were sealed until a late date, not sure of Warren wanted that or his family. The archivists at our National Archives have a tough assignment, preserving artifacts that are not even cataloged, sometimes a former official has been accused of swiping unflattering documents to prevent the unvarnished truth from getting out. And the archivists are generally not in a hurry to open the archives.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                Should affairs of the distant past be reported? Does it make a difference?
                Yes, presidents should be described warts and all, preventing more dumb nonsense about being 'unpresidential'.
                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  Yes, presidents should be described warts and all, preventing more dumb nonsense about being 'unpresidential'.
                  Were the charges about Carter and Clinton being "unpresidential" dumb, or just presented by dumb people?

                  Or was the praises of Reagan being "presidential" dumb, or presented by dub people?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                    Were the charges about Carter and Clinton being "unpresidential" dumb
                    Yes.

                    Or was the praises of the actor Reagan being "presidential" dumb
                    Fixed, yes.
                    Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                      Yes.



                      Fixed, yes.
                      So we can toss out the whole presidential-unpresidential as some red herring. Seems to be a minority position among conservative Christians.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                        So we can toss out the whole presidential-unpresidential as some red herring. Seems to be a minority position among conservative Christians.
                        They'll mend their ways when the other team takes office.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                          They'll mend their ways when the other team takes office.
                          Ahhh, the "clean slate" of partisan rhetoric, in which all the old arguments are forgotten the moment the other party takes the office. Nothing demonstrates precisely which principles are held dear, than looking to see which principles survive the transition of parties into power.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            George Washington likely had a ....dalliance with his friend's wife, Jefferson had his paramour, Warren G Harding waxed poetic over his ...... ummm, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

                            ....jerry. Bill Clinton was the first President to have been outed.

                            Today, we no longer pass over such things in silence. Not sure what this says about us and our culture. MLK had affairs, and it did not really make news until fairly recently.

                            Should affairs of the distant past be reported? Does it make a difference?
                            MLK had affairs. Does the scandal of the affairs somehow overshadow his accomplishments or his standing as a Christian (both within and without the church)?

                            MLK was also accused of plagiarism, does that charge cast doubt on all his writings? Does the charge of plagiarism in an academic setting (which I think him guilty, the attribution of ideas is important within the hallowed halls of academia, but different from how appropriation of ideas are approved of outside academia) allow us to discount his writings?

                            Comment

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