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  • Originally posted by carpedmprig View Post
    Frankly, this forum tends to bring out my darker side. Much as I promise myself to keep that under wraps...I cave and start responding in kind.
    Right... it's our fault. This is a classic "I'm sorry, but..." non-apology.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by little_monkey View Post
      Agree with your point in regard to Trump's action and his motivation. However, it's a national crisis - the virus doesn't respect boundaries. So it's counter-productive if one governor's action nullifies the action of the neighboring state. This is not about constitutional rights or state's rights. The President has enough power to institute a national response to this national crisis, whether the foe is exterior or interior. It's a question of leadership, which Trump sorely doesn't have.
      I absolutely agree. My observation was, at a minimum, if a state is not taking precautions to staunch the spread of the virus, Trump could basically quarantine that entire state - no travel to/from until they show zero infections or put in place constraints. But he won't. Losing the votes would be too much for him.

      And I'm sure this will get the inevitable "complains he's like a dictator and then wants him to act like one" meme as a response. The fact is, in a crisis, the entire purpose of the executive is to act quickly and decisively. The fact that we have a wanna-be dictator at the helm just muddies the waters. If he wasn't one - there would not be the issue of "is he trying to be a dictator?" Of course, in this age of hyper polarization, I guess it doesn't really matter who is at the helm - the other side will hate him and tear him down.

      Too bad THIS man (Trump) is truly a vile man by pretty much all measures.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        So you think he should starve out those that don't comply?
        Not part of my argument - so yet another strawman.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        No that's not acting like a dictator at all.
        In a time of crisis, the executive is empowered to take extraordinary measures to deal with the crisis. It's is one of the reasons why we HAVE an executive. It is why the entire concept of "martial law" exists (though I do not think we are anywhere near ready for that. It is why the Emergency Declaration Act exists.

        I agree that it is somewhat nerve-wracking to have a man who continually expresses admiration for dictators and strongmen taking that role - but in this case it is a necessary evil. He either acts - or people die.

        And they are beginning to die at the rate of over 1,300 a day. By the end of this week, if the growth continues on the current trajectory, we will likely have the equivalent of a 911 every single day.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Right... it's our fault. This is a classic "I'm sorry, but..." non-apology.
          No apology intended. And no blaming others either. You see, you once again deliberately took a sentence out of context. The rest of the paragraph continued: "Then I hate myself for it, recognizing it for the failing in me that it is."

          How you can be so dishonest, yet claim the banner "Christian" is beyond me. But hey, if it's good enough for Trump...
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Not part of my argument - so yet another strawman.



            In a time of crisis, the executive is empowered to take extraordinary measures to deal with the crisis. It's is one of the reasons why we HAVE an executive. It is why the entire concept of "martial law" exists (though I do not think we are anywhere near ready for that. It is why the Emergency Declaration Act exists.

            I agree that it is somewhat nerve-wracking to have a man who continually expresses admiration for dictators and strongmen taking that role - but in this case it is a necessary evil. He either acts - or people die.

            And they are beginning to die at the rate of over 1,300 a day. By the end of this week, if the growth continues on the current trajectory, we will likely have the equivalent of a 911 every single day.
            Pro-authoritarian push with a dash of fearmongering to boot if I've ever seen one, even though you absolutely despise the one whom you would allot that power to. That makes absolutely no sense.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedmprig View Post
              My observation was, at a minimum, if a state is not taking precautions to staunch the spread of the virus, Trump could basically quarantine that entire state - no travel to/from until they show zero infections or put in place constraints. But he won't. Losing the votes would be too much for him.
              You do realize that the president doesn't actually have the Constitutional authority to do that, right? It would be such a gross overreach of federal authority that it boggles the mind you would even suggest it.

              So, yes, you are blatantly contradicting yourself when you cry about Trump acting like a dictator and then cry when he doesn't act like one.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • No surprise here. Despite rapidly climbing numbers, the general belief is that the death count is actually too low because it only includes people who die who have tested positive for coronavirus. The lack of testing and unwillingness to use tests on those who have already died (because that would keep them from those still alive) means there a deaths, likely many of them, that are not included in the count.

                I hope we get universal alignment on mitigation soon, but that does not seem likely, given the lack of effective leadership from Washington. I can't even bring myself to watch the briefings anymore. I have no desire to listen to another slew of misinformation and attend a Trump campaign rally. I've watched a few...and they make my stomach turn.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Trump is in control of the federal response, and he's done a good job as far that is concerned. What individual states do is up to their own governments. If they failed to prepare under the mistaken belief the federal government would necessarily have the resources to bail them out then that's their fault, not the President's. Seems a lot of people in this country are suddenly getting a crash course in civics about stuff they should have learned in high school.
                  That’s outstanding leadership.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    Pro-authoritarian push with a dash of fearmongering to boot if I've ever seen one, even though you absolutely despise the one whom you would allot that power to. That makes absolutely no sense.
                    You have to live with the cat that came home until it is possible to get rid of it. The cat you could quickly euthanize - but there are laws about doing that to a president, and I have never advocated getting this man out of that office by anything other than legal means - which means an impeachment (unlikely given the political dynamics in play on the right) or an election (which I am pinning high hopes on). Trump is increasing my hopes for the latter with every stumble he makes. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of people's lives.

                    As for the "fear mongering," feel free to cite one thing in that post that was untrue.
                    Last edited by carpedm9587; 04-05-2020, 01:48 PM.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                      That’s outstanding leadership.
                      Pretty much my thought (assuming you were being sarcastic) - and a continuation of the "buck stops there" type of leadership we now have in Washington.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedmprig View Post
                        No apology intended. And no blaming others either. You see, you once again deliberately took a sentence out of context. The rest of the paragraph continued: "Then I hate myself for it, recognizing it for the failing in me that it is."

                        How you can be so dishonest, yet claim the banner "Christian" is beyond me. But hey, if it's good enough for Trump...
                        You might hate yourself for it, but you still blame us for your actions when you try to justify it as simply "responding in kind". That's how a child reasons.

                        "I'm sorry I hit my brother, and I feel terrible about it, but he shouldn't have made me want to hit him by looking at me funny!"

                        Any time an apology contains a description of someone else's actions, then it's really not an apology.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          You have to live with the cat that came home until it is possible to get rid of it.

                          As for the "fear mongering," feel free to cite one thing in that post that was untrue.
                          How about the fact there are too many unknowns about it still? Yet you want get a prez you absolutely detest all authoritarian regardless. Not even the most avid pro-Trump crowd in here are pushing that.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Watermelon View Post
                            That’s outstanding leadership.
                            It's how our country operates. The federal government has limited power, and the individual states have autonomy. It's basically the model the Europeam Union is based on but without success, partly because they didn't build in those necessary limits.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Pix, OBP, is the queen of tangents. Despite your characterizations, I make every effort in my discussions with her to avoid the sidebars and tangents and stay focused on the original discussion. But I almost inevitably find myself spun off in a dozen directions until I no longer even remember what started the discussion. I've gotten better at jumping out of the discussion earlier, but now I'm pretty much of the mind that further discussion with her, MM, Demi, and Darth is pointless. All of them are so deeply buried in their conspiracy theories and trolling that it makes discussion useless. Rogue, Sparko, and Sean are pretty close to the same bar. Seer I hate to give up on. I met him face to face and actually liked him. But his inability to manage simple rational connections and his tendency to drift into personal attacks when he cannot logically respond is getting tedious. But all of them practice (here) a form of toxic Christianity I find somewhat revolting.

                              Frankly, this forum tends to bring out my darker side. Much as I promise myself to keep that under wraps...I cave and start responding in kind. Then I hate myself for it, recognizing it for the failing in me that it is. I left twice because of that exact dynamic. I returned at the first sign of the pandemic to see how it was being responded to by those on the right. I have my answer. I'll probably shove off again soon.
                              In other words:

                              You can’t refute it, so you gaslight an attempt to spin it that everyone else, is crazy, but you.

                              It is no conspiracy theory that China lied for months about what was going on within its own country and continues to lie about what is going on.
                              "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                              GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                I absolutely agree. My observation was, at a minimum, if a state is not taking precautions to staunch the spread of the virus, Trump could basically quarantine that entire state - no travel to/from until they show zero infections or put in place constraints. But he won't. Losing the votes would be too much for him.

                                And I'm sure this will get the inevitable "complains he's like a dictator and then wants him to act like one" meme as a response. The fact is, in a crisis, the entire purpose of the executive is to act quickly and decisively. The fact that we have a wanna-be dictator at the helm just muddies the waters. If he wasn't one - there would not be the issue of "is he trying to be a dictator?" Of course, in this age of hyper polarization, I guess it doesn't really matter who is at the helm - the other side will hate him and tear him down.

                                Too bad THIS man (Trump) is truly a vile man by pretty much all measures.
                                And again:

                                Why does nowhere, USA, with no China Flu cases in 100 miles, need to do the same thing as NYC, which contains 1/3rd of all US cases?
                                "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                                GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                                Comment

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