Coronavirus Outbreak...

[carpedm9587]

Carp why would Trump listen to them when our top Doc on this (Fauci) was saying as late as Feb.24 that it was no big deal (as I linked)? He was the one who had Trump's ear daily. I mean he and his team are the experts - correct?

So you, like Sparko, have a calendar and/or reading comprehension problem. IMO, everyone gets a pass for stop-start action in the early days. It would have taken a prophet to know what was going on with any certainty and mixed messages were coming from all around. By 2/24, the first community transmission case had been detected. Fauci's comments on that day were specific that community transmission would change everything. Then Trump continued to downplay the virus for the next 3 weeks, and is still doing it. Yes, he's also saying "doom and gloom" but it's mixed with "we have to reopen this country." And his leadership still sucks. His coronavirus briefings are little more than replacements for his campaign rallies.

And if you're going to do another "but, but, what about the January travel ban?" see my response below. It is amazing that Trump's base keeps coming back to this minimal, ineffectively done action as if somehow Trump was a great visionary who saved the country. Other countries did it far better, far sooner (relative to their own infections), and his actions since have been chaotic and largely ineffective. Where we are seeing decisive action is at the governor level, including their "governors only" meetings. Funny that - why would the governors feel a need to hold meetings about interstate cooperation that explicitly exclude the fed when the entire reason the fed exists is to deal with interstate and multistate issues?

Yet even at the governor level, if you look at testing by state, the balance is telling. Trump won 31 states in 2016 and Clinton won 19. That's roughly a 3:2 ratio (actually, it's 3.1:1.9). If you look at testing performance across the U.S., of the 18 lowest states, 16 are states Trump won (so-called red states). That's an 8:1 ratio. If you look at the 18 top states, the ratio is 11:7 blue:red. Of the 8 states that still do not have shelter-in-place orders, all are red states. If you look at the dates when shelter in place orders were issued, red states (by far) delayed the most.

Why? In part because these states are filled with Trump's base and led by governors (and often legislatures) filled with Trump sycophants, and Trump has been wishy-washy on the virus, failing to take a solid "we have to do something" until finally acknowledging there was a pandemic on March 17th, three weeks after community spread was detected.

And you want us to praise him?

[carpedm9587]

You accusing someone of hand waving things off is like water accusing something of being wet.

It is your modus operandi whenever something doesn't fit into the narrative you have crafted. I mean hand waving something off is known around here as "doing a carpe"

Only among the usual cast of characters, Rogue - the same cast that is regularly handwaving away anything that does not fit their narrative - usually with accusations of "handwaving." I provide data for my posts, and reasons for my positions. Mostly, from the "usual cast" we get selectively chosen examples that foster their narrative.

I don't have a great deal of respect for that kind of discourse, so being accused of handwaving by that ilk doesn't have much effect. It's the same group that largely uses meme-based argumentation.

[carpedm9587]

Getting back to this just briefly...

My town straddles the border of two counties in PA.

In one of them, Beaver, median household income is a bit under $56k. The town is mostly in Lawrence, where the median household income is a bit under $49k. In comparison, the median household income nationwide is almost $62k.

This may account for some of my differing perceptions.

That would probably account for it. You might also want to look at the local cost of living, which will also impact salaries and the ability of someone to live on X dollars. We have no mortgage anymore, and no debt whatsoever. But if I had to live on a gross income of $50K or less, we would have to sell our home and find a different place/way to live. We would also have to take our children (21 and 23) off our insurance and cut back on our charitable giving a LOT.

[Mountain Man]

Italy: Banned inbound travelers from China one day after first infection found, and closure was absolute (all travelers).
U.S.: Banned inbound travelers from China who were not U.S. citizens 11 days after first infection found with 11 exceptions (including such small places as Hong Kong).

And yes, Dems were wrong to condemn the action, but given 4+ years of anti-immigration action from the Trump administration, their objection was wrong but understandable. Everyone was in "is this going to be a thing?" mode at that time.

There is not much reason to overly praise the administration here. They took a minimal action which was followed by piecemeal border closures for the next six weeks. And there is STILL no nationwide "shelter-in-place" order (8 states, all red, are still not issuing them) or limits on interstate travel.

"Why didn't Trump do anything early! "
"He did."
"Oh, well, let's not overly praise him for it."

Dammed if he does, damned if he doesn't.

[carpedm9587]

"Why didn't Trump do anything early! "
"He did."
"Oh, well, let's not overly praise him for it."

Dammed if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I've not made this argument, so

But nice strawman....


Here's my argument:

1) Trump has been ineffective since the first community transmission was detected (around 2/24).
2) Claims by Trump's base that he acted decisively in January and most of February are unfounded.

Many leaders and experts, before 2/24, were tossing out mixed signals, so Trump gets a pass for being one of them.

[rogue06]

And yes, Dems were wrong to condemn the action, but given 4+ years of anti-immigration action from the Trump administration virulent, mindless hatred by Democrats and the MSM directed at Trump, their objection was wrong but understandable.

FIFY n/c

[carpedm9587]

FIFY n/c

It was fine the way it was, Rogue. And congrats on again cutting out the parts of the post you couldn't respond to. Every time you guys do that, you affirm that I hit a nerve that upsets your narrative and you have to turn a blind eye to it...

[rogue06]

A gentle reminder and putting things in perspective:

Kind of interesting to see what many of those who are screaming that Trump didn't take the Chicom coronavirus seriously enough early on were themselves saying about it earlier this year.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43988[/ATTACH]

It is also interesting to note that as late as February 28th the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a paper saying that the virus seemed to be much less severe than other recent outbreaks of respiratory illnesses and would likely be no worse than a severe flu season:

Source: Clinical Characteristics of Coronavirus Disease 2019 in China

The overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.



Source

© Copyright Original Source

So Trump is evil for likening it to influenza early on but you had doctors publishing papers in a prestigious medical journal at the very end of February who were still doing just that.

[rogue06]

It was fine the way it was, Rogue. And congrats on again cutting out the parts of the post you couldn't respond to. Every time you guys do that, you affirm that I hit a nerve that upsets your narrative and you have to turn a blind eye to it...

I addressed the pertinent part and not the babble

[Mountain Man]

Here's my argument:

1) Trump has been ineffective since the first community transmission was detected (around 2/24).
2) Claims by Trump's base that he acted decisively in January and most of February are unfounded.

Many leaders and experts, before 2/24, were tossing out mixed signals, so Trump gets a pass for being one of them.

I think you've mistaken an unfounded assertion for an argument.

[Mountain Man]

A gentle reminder and putting things in perspective:

So Trump is evil for likening it to influenza early on but you had doctors publishing papers in a prestigious medical journal at the very end of February who were still doing just that.

"Trump should have listened to the medical experts!"
"He did."
"Well then he should have listened to his intelligence agencies!"
"He did that, too."
"Oh yeah? Well- well Orange Man Bad, so there!""

[carpedm9587]

I think you've mistaken an unfounded assertion for an argument.

The arguments supporting those assertions have been made thoroughly in my previous posts. If you can't be bothered to read them, I'm not going to bother to repost. Besides, history suggests you'll:

a) handwave it away:
b) create a strawman and fight vigorously against it
c) take off on a tangent to divert the discussion
d) delete any parts of the post you cannot respond to and do a) through c) for the rest.

You, Sparko, Pix, Rogue, SeanD, Darth, and Demi are largely peas in a pod. Seer's a close runner-up. You subscribe to the Trump school of trolling and it's largely a waste of my time. And so is this exchange. I should have known better than to respond to you. Last word to you.

[seer]

So you, like Sparko, have a calendar and/or reading comprehension problem. IMO, everyone gets a pass for stop-start action in the early days. It would have taken a prophet to know what was going on with any certainty and mixed messages were coming from all around. By 2/24, the first community transmission case had been detected. Fauci's comments on that day were specific that community transmission would change everything. Then Trump continued to downplay the virus for the next 3 weeks, and is still doing it. Yes, he's also saying "doom and gloom" but it's mixed with "we have to reopen this country." And his leadership still sucks. His coronavirus briefings are little more than replacements for his campaign rallies.

What are you talking about? On Feb.17 (not the 24th) Fauci said the risk to the American people was minuscule.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ds/4787209002/

And yes Trump is overly optimistic...

[Sparko]

It's like:

"Why doesn't Trump do X, Y, and Z?"
"He already has."
"Well, why didn't he do it sooner?"
"He did."
"Oh yeah? Well then why didn't he predict the future three years ago and plan for this exact scenario, huh?"

For that matter, if this was so easily predicted as liberals are now claiming, then why weren't individual states better prepared? Why did Gov. Cuomo, for instance, refuse to stock up on ventilators two-years ago when he was given the opportunity?

No, I guess it's all Trump's fault.

exactly. Now they are blaming Trump for the emergency stock being too low as if he should have predicted this specific crisis.

I am just sick of these idiots, both on TV and Tweb who just tear things down and look for things to complain about. Nothing Trump does is good enough. This crisis is just one more excuse to whine about Trump.

Watching the various News channels, I see Fox concentrating on what people are doing to help, how people are making face shields at home on 3D printers, people praying, people helping each other, what breakthroughs are happening in treating this disease. CNN seems to be just concentrating about how bad everything is, the economy is doomed, Trump isn't doing anything, how we are heading into a great depression, gloom and doom.

[Sparko]

I live quite comfortably at $30K/yr. Of course I'm not that into possessions, not needing this or that latest gadget or "must have" item of the year. Of course my place is paid off and I own my car as well which makes a big difference.

Yep. if you are debt free, it makes it a lot easier to live on less.