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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    So, again, how did "Trump has badly bungled this" get translated to "It is expected that a president will do this perfectly?"

    The issue is not perfection, or how much better anyone else could do this or what mistakes anyone made in the past. The question is, how many perfectly avoidable mistakes have been made? A bad reagent in the development of a testing kit is a happenstance that could not be foreseen. Spending days/weeks declaring this "under control" and "a non-issue" and choosing NOT to use an existing and demonstrably effective testing protocol are decisions that can and should be called into question.

    The fact that he is NOT doing the best job possible, and is again acting and talking and choosing in his own best interests is the entire point. We didn't get "wartime president" until the situation was so evidently a problem the man in the executive office couldn't spin his way out of it. Even now, despite invoking the Defense Production Act, he's sitting on his hands instead of ordering the manufacture of critically needed supplies that are in critically short supply (hand sanitizer, swaps for testing, test kits, ventilators, etc.).

    As I said in the Trump and Coronavirus thread, in this situation there is no way any leader can do what everyone thinks they should do, simply because there is no 'one correct thing' to do. Whatever they do, someone is going to think it's not enough, and others are going to think it's too much. You can see that in this very thread - some posters aren't taking it as a serious issue, others are. Therefore I suggest that it's largely unproductive spending time arguing about whether Trump has (or hasn't) bungled things. Every country's situation is going to be a little different, and there are other factors that a country's leader has to consider apart from the public health considerations.

    As an example, a lockdown enforced too soon may lead to 'virus fatigue' on the part of the population, and then an unwillingness to comply with public health measures later on, when perhaps they are more needed. The economic damage caused by a lockdown may hurt a country's ability to respond to a later surge in infections, or force people to ignore health recommendations - where I live, many people have to work almost every day, or they don't have money for food and rent for the next day.

    In short, anyone can play armchair expert, but it's just not as simple as that.




    Originally posted by carpedm9587
    As for being my president, no thanks. I'm over 60 years old, and I have never uttered the words "not my president," no matter how much I disagreed with the policies or practices of the holder of that office - including Nixon. But I have never put "president" in front of Trump and I will never accept him as "my president." His behavior and actions in that office do not justify my granting him that honorific. IMO, he is keeping the chair warm until he can be replaced by someone who knows how to do the job and can represent the best values of America. Lying, bullying, vengeance seeking, cozying up with and defending the worst leaders in the world, and extreme narcissism are not on that list.

    Ummm... you're kind of contradicting yourself here. Trump is your President, whether you like it or not, and whether you think he acts accordingly or not. It's a title and office conferred on the winner of the presidential elections. He won, therefore he is President. Obama was President too, even for those people who hated everything he did. That's what democracy is about. You can, of course, abandon democracy, but remember that you're opening the door for others to do the same, and more, when the next president is elected. If you're not willing to accept the results of an election unless 'your guy' wins, then I suggest honesty and integrity requires that you don't vote. Since you did (I assume) vote, you can't say 'he's not my President' and maintain integrity. That's the equivalent of refusing to pay up on a lost bet, simply because you don't like the outcome. I can't respect people who do that.


    The question of whether he is presently fit to remain President is of course a different one, and there are procedures in place in America for that, and a new election coming pretty soon.


    Lastly, your evident animus for Trump means that you're perhaps not the most objective analyst of his actions. Maybe he's not doing so badly in handling this crisis after all....?
    ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      The whole country is coming together, right and left, but your hate just won't allow you to let go...
      Your opinion is noted, Seer. Thanks for your post.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        As I said in the Trump and Coronavirus thread, in this situation there is no way any leader can do what everyone thinks they should do, simply because there is no 'one correct thing' to do. Whatever they do, someone is going to think it's not enough, and others are going to think it's too much. You can see that in this very thread - some posters aren't taking it as a serious issue, others are. Therefore I suggest that it's largely unproductive spending time arguing about whether Trump has (or hasn't) bungled things. Every country's situation is going to be a little different, and there are other factors that a country's leader has to consider apart from the public health considerations.
        It's not unproductive if the bungling continues. Hopefully, keeping a spotlight on the regular tide of mistakes will push him in the right direction. This is a man susceptible to flattery and highly dependent on being "well thought of." We have seen him change tracks before under public pressure. Hopefully, that's enough to steer him in the right directions. However, it requires the public pressure to overwhelm the "ataboys" from his base. That takes a lot of time and effort. Unfortunately, this is a time-sensitive situation, and steering from the bottom is not a particularly efficient way to do things.

        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        As an example, a lockdown enforced too soon may lead to 'virus fatigue' on the part of the population, and then an unwillingness to comply with public health measures later on, when perhaps they are more needed. The economic damage caused by a lockdown may hurt a country's ability to respond to a later surge in infections, or force people to ignore health recommendations - where I live, many people have to work almost every day, or they don't have money for food and rent for the next day.

        In short, anyone can play armchair expert, but it's just not as simple as that.
        It's never as simple as that - and I don't believe I ever said anything about a lock down. But the president could have been sharing voice with his medical leaders and the experts who were saying, "we need to act" and "this is going to be bad." He could have been listening to the science instead of fluffing his own feathers and trying to "media" his was out of this, as he does with so many things. He could have been working to sweep away those obstacles that eventually swept away in quick order, after weeks of denial of what his experts were telling him. In short, he's inept. If we are going to survive this long term, he needs to go in November.

        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        Ummm... you're kind of contradicting yourself here. Trump is your President, whether you like it or not, and whether you think he acts accordingly or not. It's a title and office conferred on the winner of the presidential elections. He won, therefore he is President. Obama was President too, even for those people who hated everything he did. That's what democracy is about. You can, of course, abandon democracy, but remember that you're opening the door for others to do the same, and more, when the next president is elected. If you're not willing to accept the results of an election unless 'your guy' wins, then I suggest honesty and integrity requires that you don't vote. Since you did (I assume) vote, you can't say 'he's not my President' and maintain integrity. That's the equivalent of refusing to pay up on a lost bet, simply because you don't like the outcome. I can't respect people who do that.
        No - I'm not contradicting myself - but I am apparently contradicting you. Your emphasis appears to be on the "president" in "my president." My emphasis is on the "my." I am aware that he holds the office and won the election. I am aware he has the power to do all of the things that come with that office. I also know he is completely unsuited to that office, and a danger to our country as a whole. The president of our country should be a leader that sets the example for the nation - whatever our policy differences might be. This man does not even begin to meet that description. His example is "lying is desirable if it gets you what you want." His example is, "always get retribution on those who you believe wrong you." His example is, "bullying is an acceptable tactic in all confrontational situations." His example is noxious in the extreme.

        But there is an element of truth to your statement, which is why I have put things in motion to change my residence and citizenship should 11/3 put him back in office. As I have said numerous times, I can accept that the American people made an honest mistake in 2016, because of their extreme dislike of Clinton, their feelings of abandonment, and the fact that they succumbed to this man's hate mongering. But if America does it again in 2020 - not only will he not be my president - but this country will no longer be the country I was born to and grew up in. It will have changed, possibly irrevocably. I will no longer want to associate myself with it or be part of it, and will seek to relocate and renounce my citizenship. Fortunately, I have high hopes I will not have to act on that.

        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        The question of whether he is presently fit to remain President is of course a different one, and there are procedures in place in America for that, and a new election coming pretty soon.
        It is indeed.

        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        Lastly, your evident animus for Trump means that you're perhaps not the most objective analyst of his actions. Maybe he's not doing so badly in handling this crisis after all....?
        I work pretty hard to maintain my objectivity. I find that the best way to do that is to look, each day, for at least one good thing I think this administration has accomplished. Fortunately, they happen. I am aware of my dislike for this man, Max. Don't mistake extreme dislike for partisan rancor. I could give a fig (normally) which party is in power in Washington. I am more concerned about the long-term outcomes and the viability of this nation. Right now, there are forces tearing at the very roots of what we stand for, and Mr. Trump is at the center of that disease. I would use every legal and ethical means at my disposal to see him gone.
        Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-20-2020, 04:37 AM.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • I have been tracking the outbreak here. One of the most concerning charts is the one in the bottom right corner. If you are looking at this before noon on any given day, you may find the line for the "rest of the world" shows a slight tapering off - a hopeful sign. But if all of the previous days are accelerating, you may be looking at incomplete data. Every day, there has been that little slow-down hook in the morning, but it vanishes by early evening as the numbers from the second half of the day roll in. China may be seeing a drop off in cases and most of their cases have been resolved (assuming they are accurately reporting their numbers), but the rest of the world is in the midst of an exponential assent. When it will level off is anyone's guess. California estimates 56% of the state will be infected in 8 weeks. If they are correct, and those numbers hold across the country - coupled with the mortality rate of this disease - the numbers will be frighteningly high. And there is reason to believe this is a genuine possibility. We saw a 40% uptick in infections yesterday. I'm sure that is due to increased testing, but that also means those cases are out there to be found. Our current infection rate is almost certainly MUCH higher than is being reported, largely due to lack of testing.

          What little remains of the "chicken little" declarations have to stop - and we have to universally take this as seriously as it promises to be - for all our sakes. We have to continually push this administration to do the right things, and convey the right message, as best we can.

          I hope everyone reading this is staying healthy and doing all they can to self-isolate and minimize the spread.
          Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-20-2020, 04:56 AM.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I have been tracking the outbreak......................

            What little remains of the "chicken little" declarations have to stop - and we have to universally take this as seriously as it promises to be - for all our sakes. We have to continually push this administration to do the right things, and convey the right message, as best we can.

            I hope everyone reading this is staying healthy and doing all they can to self-isolate and minimize the spread.
            Well maybe George Soros is behind all this, somewhere. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...onavirus-just/

            One question I keep asking is what would a pro life position look like in the face of an epidemic? Would a pro life position look different than a pro choicer's position? (goes to how either group values human life) Should we err on the side of caution? What are the reasoned approaches to an epidemic?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
              Well maybe George Soros is behind all this, somewhere. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...onavirus-just/

              One question I keep asking is what would a pro life position look like in the face of an epidemic? Would a pro life position look different than a pro choicer's position? (goes to how either group values human life) Should we err on the side of caution? What are the reasoned approaches to an epidemic?
              Speaking of the coronavirus and pro-life...

              Not sure about the numbers and how much they're subject to change, but just some food for thought:




              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Shutting down travel was contrary to the experts opinion then as it is today. The public was warned, told to protect themselves, in the same way as they have been today, but once the horse is out of the barn, so to speak, suspending travel from the host country, as you can see, even today, wasn't all that helpful in containing the spread of the virus once it was here. But that particular initiative, whether it's a good idea or not, isn't something that Trump has been criticized for anyway.
                That is nonsense Jim, the experts are saying to shut down travel, most countries are shutting their borders. Where were the warnings about large crowds, the closing of bars and restaurants, stopping sporting events and such. Social distancing? None of this was done under Obama.
                Last edited by seer; 03-20-2020, 05:31 AM.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • If you are one of the unfortunate 12%, you have 3 weeks between getting ill and needing to go to hospital. Will there be a hospital bed for you? Will there be medical staff to look after you? Will the hospital have the equipment it needs to keep you alive.

                  Previous experience shows that many will simply not be treated. Doctors will decide which of you are worth the effort.
                  “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                  “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                  “not all there” - you know who you are

                  Comment


                  • China Is Avoiding Blame by Trolling the World
                    Beijing is successfully dodging culpability for its role in spreading the coronavirus.


                    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-blame/608332/
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      China Is Avoiding Blame by Trolling the World
                      Beijing is successfully dodging culpability for its role in spreading the coronavirus.


                      https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-blame/608332/
                      ??

                      The story just hit about senators trading on their inside information, information they with held from public. Washington should be held accountable for its inaction, just as much as Beijing ought to be. Washington insiders were trolling the US public, feeding them a different set of information, information which they knew to be wrong. The fact that they were able to profit from it is a disgrace.

                      Beijing fed misinformation to the world, so did Washington insiders.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        China Is Avoiding Blame by Trolling the World
                        Beijing is successfully dodging culpability for its role in spreading the coronavirus.


                        https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-blame/608332/
                        As much as we've bungled our own response - even having had the benefit of watching them struggle with it - it is the height of hypocrisy to be pointing fingers.

                        We don't need to be pointing fingers. We need to be working together - globally - to defeat this thing.
                        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          As much as we've bungled our own response - even having had the benefit of watching them struggle with it - it is the height of hypocrisy to be pointing fingers.

                          We don't need to be pointing fingers. We need to be working together - globally - to defeat this thing.
                          Jim, this is not the first time China has sent us a deadly virus. How many more do we need? And it is right and good to blame China. And haven't you been criticizing Trump through this whole thing?

                          China knew for years bats caused disease, left wild animal markets open

                          Communist China has allowed wild animal markets to offer live bats, raccoons, civets and other species, and a series of studies shows the animals are teeming with viruses that threaten humans.

                          Scientific studies concluded that the 2002 SARS epidemic likely started from coronaviruses in bats that made their way to humans in Guangdong province. Chinese tastes favor raw bats, snakes and other animals that are bought live and slaughtered.

                          Today, bats are suspected as the source for the devastating coronavirus that causes COVID-19. Officially known as SARS-CoV-2, it was first reported in Wuhan, China, in November or December. Wildlife groups have urged Beijing for years to shut down sales and consumption of these animals.


                          https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...yet-left-wild/
                          Last edited by seer; 03-20-2020, 08:35 AM.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            China Is Avoiding Blame by Trolling the World
                            Beijing is successfully dodging culpability for its role in spreading the coronavirus.


                            https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-blame/608332/
                            They've got their partners in crime, much of the American MSM helping them.


                            For instance the New York Times is calling what everyone else recognizes as baseless propaganda (that the U.S. and Trump are to blame for causing it) a "theory" and thus giving it credence while CNN’s Chris "Guido" Cuomo bizarrely dismissed all the evidence that this pandemic originated in China declaring on his show Wednesday that "it could have come from anywhere."

                            And what happened yesterday when Trump fielded questions from the MSM after announcing the release of a number of drugs with the potential for treating the disease and maybe slowing the transmission? What sort of questions did he get? A self-righteous PBS NewsHour correspondent, Yamiche Alcindor, asking whether it was true that someone in his Administration once referred to it as "Kung flu." That is their priority.

                            After every press conference the past few days representatives of the MSM are virtually tripping over each other to be the first to indignantly demand why Trump refers to it as the Chinese coronavirus. Wednesday he was asked the same question three times. His answer was spot on: "Because it comes from China." Duh.

                            And that is a simple incontrovertible fact in spite of the New York Times and CNN helping to disseminate blatantly obvious propaganda from the Chinese government which concealed what was going on, destroyed evidence like lab samples and tests in order to continue hiding it and "disappearing" those in China who spoke out (with some of them now dead).

                            Still, Trump's wholly accurate response became a major topic out outraged discussion on various news programs.

                            Wednesday night on MSNBC's 11th Hour the thoroughly disgraced Brian Williams played the tape of Trump making reference to the virus originating in China while some members of his panel shook their heads in obvious disgust. Time magazine columnist Ian Bremmer posited the idea that Trump is only blaming China because he can't blame Obama, although later did admit that the Chicom coronavirus did in fact originate in China.

                            As for Williams he added that Trump was calling it what it is because he has a "need to blame" and "need[s] to attribute troubles to another source."

                            And yesterday sanctimonious woke twits on NBC continued to push the narrative.

                            On that network's morning program the Today Show one of their correspondents Tom Costello scolded Trump sniffing that "the virus knows no borders and there is no racial association with this virus." Of course this ignores the fact that it does have a country of origin -- China. And the senior international correspondent for Today vied for the title of biggest Chicom propagandist by pontificating that the Chinese ought to be thanked by "Western Europe and America by delaying the arrival the coronavirus here."


                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              That is nonsense Jim, the experts are saying to shut down travel, most countries are shutting their borders. Where were the warnings about large crowds, the closing of bars and restaurants, stopping sporting events and such. Social distancing? None of this was done under Obama.
                              More "but what about Obama?" Do you guys have any other refrain? Meanwhile, I think this commercial recently released by Republicans for Rule of Law pretty much tells the story.



                              And I firmly agree with the closing credit - we need a president who tells the truth. And we don't need a person who will leverage this pandemic for another four years. We have to keep our eyes firmly on what he does and does not do, and remember that the person currently occupying the oval office is a man who chronically lies, bullies, seeks vengeance, and seeks for personal gain using the power of that office. We need to unite against this pandemic, and against the clown that was elected in 2016.
                              Last edited by carpedm9587; 03-20-2020, 08:50 AM.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • I posted this earlier, but I have been tracking it. Germany continues to outperform the rest of the world in mortality, though their control of spread is not much better or worse than the U.S. I keep wondering what the magic is. As of 9:43 AM (about half an hour ago), this was the state of things:

                                Using the formula Deaths/Total Cases = Mortality (and yes, I know that is an overly simplistic model for determining an actual mortality rate this early in the pandemic - but it still provides room for comparison and the numbers should close in on the actual mortality rate as the pandemic continues)
                                • World: 10,038/246,276 = 4.08%
                                • China: 3,253/81,250 = 4.00% (and they are reputedly near the end of their pandemic, though I wonder about accurate reporting)
                                • Italy: no data available
                                • Iran: 1,284/18,407 = 6.98%
                                • Spain: 833/18,077 = 4.61%
                                • Germany: 44/16,290 = 0.27%
                                • U.S.: 205/14,250 = 1.44%
                                • France: 371/10,891 = 3.41%
                                • S. Korea: 94/8,652 = 1.09%


                                I keep asking myself, what is Germany doing differently? Reporting? Treatment? Testing? I would truly love to know. I would think any world leader looking at these numbers would be picking up the phone and asking - but I have heard of no such exchanges (which doesn't say they aren't happening), but why wouldn't a leader tell the population, "we're seeing a success story and digging into best practices."

                                That 1.44% number for the U.S. is concerning. If you put it together with California's 56% projection, and if that projection holds nationwide, it translates to over 2.6M deaths in the U.S., a number that some experts have been putting forward as a possibility for some time now. I truly hope people are taking this very seriously and doing all that the experts are advising, so that projection never manifests.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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