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  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    The exceptions were supposed to be for American citizens of Chinese origin. You just can't tell citizens of this country that they can not come into the country.
    The travel block as yet another thing Trump simply screwed up on. Not only was the thing riddled with exceptions, there was little/no plan for isolating those who did come in, many were able to originate from China and get here by simply passing through another country, and the sudden imposition of the travel restriction led to crowded airports with confused travelers - creating a Petri dish in which the virus could easily propagate.

    And too much was assumed about the effectiveness of the travel block. We now know that people were dying from Covid-19 as early as February 6th, three days after the travel ban took effect. And those deaths were confirmed by a tissue analysis of the deceased, who was in southern California when they died. At pretty much every step, Mr. Trump messed up handling this crisis.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      Or the airlines could have told them that they were not allowed in.
      Aren't you assuming the airlines were in a position to know? They would ONLY know if the entire flight was booed with them. They would have no idea if the person flew one airline to get to Europe, and booked a separate flight to get into the U.S. It is a fairly common, and easy, ploy when there is a travel restriction between two points. Folks have been using it to get to Cuba for years!
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Or the airlines could have told them that they were not allowed in.
        That is up to the US Emigration Service not the airlines.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          Research into state health regulations by Fog City Midge shows that new guidance for the definition of COVID-19 positive infections is likely the biggest background cause in a dramatic upswing in positive test results.

          [...]

          This revelation would explain exactly why those who construct the reporting systems are pushing so hard for contact tracing. According to the new guidance anyone who comes into contact with a person who tests positive is now also considered positive.

          Nice convenient way to inflate the infection rate.

          https://theconservativetreehouse.com...g-definitions/

          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          This has to be the most preposterous claim I have seen in a LONG time. I have seen absolutely NO such guidance from ANY quarter, and it makes zero sense. "Confirmed" has always meant "confirmed by test," not by association.

          Where do conspiracy nuts come UP with this stuff...?
          From the PDF...


          Comment


          • Originally posted by seanD View Post
            I believe as far as the USA, which are among the best documented cases, the dominant cases counted sever cases and hospitalizations are well documented. The problem was in the early stages of the pandemic when people were assumed to die of pneumonia and not tested and the overwhelming fatalities in places like New York where many especially the homeless which were buried in mass graves without testing. More research into records and testing may yield better results.

            One way the estimates were supported in places like New York is by comparing fatality rates of recent years with 2020. I believe after the original problems testing was more accurate, and consistent with severe cases and hospitalizations due to COVID-19.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              The travel block as yet another thing Trump simply screwed up on. Not only was the thing riddled with exceptions, there was little/no plan for isolating those who did come in, many were able to originate from China and get here by simply passing through another country, and the sudden imposition of the travel restriction led to crowded airports with confused travelers - creating a Petri dish in which the virus could easily propagate.

              And too much was assumed about the effectiveness of the travel block. We now know that people were dying from Covid-19 as early as February 6th, three days after the travel ban took effect. And those deaths were confirmed by a tissue analysis of the deceased, who was in southern California when they died. At pretty much every step, Mr. Trump messed up handling this crisis.
              It's mighty easy to armchair quarterback with hindsight as your reference. The day of the travel ban, there were only a few hundred cases identified in the country. Therefore, a travel ban was seen as an effective way of managing the origin (and which the left called racist, might I add) while not denying Americans their basic rights. That others exploited the system doesn't negate the intent of the ban. Do you think we should have completely closed ALL borders, airlines, and ports? Not let anyone in - even citizens?
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              - Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • Daily new cases v daily new deaths. US.

                cases v deaths.jpg
                https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d....&country=~USA

                Daily tests in the US:

                covid testing.jpg

                https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/f....&country=~USA

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Daily new cases v daily new deaths. US.

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]46376[/ATTACH]
                  https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d....&country=~USA

                  Daily tests in the US:

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]46377[/ATTACH]

                  https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/f....&country=~USA
                  This reflects the natural course of the coronavirus in the last quarter.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • When fighting contagion, remember to talk up the stock market:
                    And the White House’s efforts to contain and control government messaging on the disease have come under attack. Trump is highly concerned about the market and has encouraged aides not to give predictions that might cause further tremors. On Wednesday morning, he announced he would be holding a press conference at 6 p.m. about the coronavirus. He praised the government’s response and blamed the media and Democrats for the stock market’s recent tumble.
                    Oh, and remember to blame and dump the WHO.

                    Otherwise, just roll with the punches; you’ll get used to it.
                    Last edited by firstfloor; 07-08-2020, 02:16 AM.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      Then I suggest you read the guidance again. That is NOT what is says. Confirmed cases still require a positive tests, as do probable cases (though which test has been changed). It is the "deaths" criteria that has changed to exclude the need for a positive test - in one county in one state.

                      So...another false narrative and another single data point pulled out to make an argument concerning an entire country.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        It's mighty easy to armchair quarterback with hindsight as your reference.
                        By this argument, any post-factum analysis is pointless - so I reject this argument. We should always be asking, "what did we do that did and didn't work." Indeed, it has become common business practice to ask that question BEFORE acting, as a way of vetting out the possible outcomes.

                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        The day of the travel ban, there were only a few hundred cases identified in the country. Therefore, a travel ban was seen as an effective way of managing the origin (and which the left called racist, might I add) while not denying Americans their basic rights. That others exploited the system doesn't negate the intent of the ban.
                        The intent of the ban is not in question - the nature of the ban is, and the over-reliance on this one act without any significant follow-up for six weeks is the issue.

                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Do you think we should have completely closed ALL borders, airlines, and ports? Not let anyone in - even citizens?
                        If you are asking me what I would have done, I would have taken a more absolute stance with regards to travel originating from China, without all of the loopholes - as Italy did. I then would have taken two additional steps: First, I would have deployed the national guard to establish quarantine facilities so I could begin to allow Americans to return but house them in a quarantine facility until I knew they were virus free. Second, I would have immediately made the assumption the virus was already in the U.S. and needing to be contained, and I would have invoked the Defense Production Act to begin producing the materials that would be needed in the days to come. I would have stopped telling everyone "nothing to see here folks." And I would have worked the the governors to create a federally controlled supply chain to meet the needs of the individual states as they battled their epidemic.

                        Trump did none of this until well into March, provided mixed messaging at best (which he is STILL doing), and continues to downplay the situation. As a result we will have longer work outages than we needed to have, more harm to the economy, and more bodies to bury.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Daily new cases v daily new deaths. US.

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]46376[/ATTACH]
                          https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/d....&country=~USA

                          Daily tests in the US:

                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]46377[/ATTACH]

                          https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/f....&country=~USA
                          I'm really curious to know what you interpret from these graphs?
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            When fighting contagion, remember to talk up the stock market:


                            Oh, and remember to blame and dump the WHO.

                            Otherwise, just roll with the punches; you’ll get used to it.
                            The stock market is almost back where it was before the lockdown. Most Americans have their retirement money in the stock market, whether they know it or not. So the stock market isn't just for the rich like the liberals like to claim. When the stock market does good, we all do good. When it doesn't, people can lose their entire retirement savings.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I'm really curious to know what you interpret from these graphs?
                              The death rate is declining, which means that despite more cases being found, fewer people are dying. This indicates a lot more testing going on, finding cases that resolve without death. Which lowers the overall mortality rate of COVID-19.

                              This could mean that the disease has mutated to a less deadly form, or that the treatments we have now are working to lower the death rate. It's good news. But the MSM is ignoring this fact and just reporting the increasing daily cases.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                By this argument, any post-factum analysis is pointless - so I reject this argument. We should always be asking, "what did we do that did and didn't work." Indeed, it has become common business practice to ask that question BEFORE acting, as a way of vetting out the possible outcomes.
                                A successful analysis looks at what worked and didn't, and focuses on the future. What we have is continued focus on the failures and nothing but ridicule for those failures. This should be a learning experience for us, but instead, it is a political hit-job.


                                The intent of the ban is not in question - the nature of the ban is, and the over-reliance on this one act without any significant follow-up for six weeks is the issue.
                                Because there were only a handful of cases at the time of the ban. It SHOULD have been good enough, but people cheated the system. That isn't Trump's fault.


                                If you are asking me what I would have done, I would have taken a more absolute stance with regards to travel originating from China, without all of the loopholes - as Italy did.
                                "Italy looked at the example of China … not as a practical warning, but as a 'science fiction movie that had nothing to do with us.' And when the virus exploded, Europe … 'looked at us the same way we looked at China.'"
                                — Sandra Zampa, undersecretary of Italy's Health Ministry, to the NY Times

                                I then would have taken two additional steps: First, I would have deployed the national guard to establish quarantine facilities so I could begin to allow Americans to return but house them in a quarantine facility until I knew they were virus free.
                                The National Guard can only be activated by the Governor of the state. They need no authorization from the Pentagon or the POTUS.

                                Second, I would have immediately made the assumption the virus was already in the U.S. and needing to be contained, and I would have invoked the Defense Production Act to begin producing the materials that would be needed in the days to come. I would have stopped telling everyone "nothing to see here folks." And I would have worked the the governors to create a federally controlled supply chain to meet the needs of the individual states as they battled their epidemic.
                                There already is a federally controlled oversight of the supply chain. It's called the Defense Logistics Agency. But budget cuts under the Obama administration to the agency severely reduced their ability to surge personnel for emergencies.

                                Trump did none of this until well into March,
                                Italy didn't start anything significant other than restricting flights to China and quarantining a few small towns until March 4.

                                And Trump DID more early in March, including restricting government workers like me from traveling.

                                provided mixed messaging at best (which he is STILL doing),
                                I disagree. His messages are consistently cautiously optimistic.

                                and continues to downplay the situation.
                                Not at all.

                                As a result we will have longer work outages than we needed to have, more harm to the economy, and more bodies to bury.
                                Daily deaths are down. As soon as we can get a vaccine, they will probably drop precipitously. Keeping the economy closed causes more harm than opening it back up.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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