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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    No, democrats are concerned about a 500 billion dollar slush fund in the bill targeted to corporations with no oversight.
    Slush fund... riiight. What a fantastic idea! Let's put together a slush fund and keep it quiet until JUST before the election so the truth can come out just in time to destroy our chances to keep the Senate. God you are a gullible moron...
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
      They are trying to make sure that the GOP does not give away 500 billion dollars to companies that will squander it. There need to be controls on how the money is used. There needs to be paid leave for workers (or a supplement to state unemployment that will pay the actual salaries). This money needs to go to making sure the companies employee's and the companie's basic infrastructure remain intact across the space of the social distancing construct. They can't just take the money and give their CEO's big bonuses, or buy back their own stock etc.

      The republican side does understand perhaps better than the democrats that a failed economy, a depression, is also a great strain on the nation and its people. As Trump pointed out, is the cure worse than the disease. That is not a fake concern, that is real. So you can't JUST focus on paying workers, but neither can you cow-tow to the corporate desire for profits. In fact, it might be a really good time for all corporations to eye break-even or a small loss with any eye toward taking profits (those that are profiting, e.g. amazon and medical equipment providers) and using it for the good of the nation in this time.

      What manipulation looks like rogue is dismissing the real concerns of either side and not working to a balance of both concerns and a compromise where neither side gets exactly what they want. Both sides need to STOP the Trumpian era magnification of polarization and blaming of the other guy for things where there is shared responsibility. BOTH sides need to stop playing to their base.

      And YOU and I are part of that. So STOP with the partisan crap and START posting constructive, real discussion of what needs to happen on BOTH sides. Because THEY are a reflection of US. And until YOU and I can figure out we are in this TOGETHER, THEY will continue to operate as they are.
      Obviously we don't want another bailout like we had in 2008, but this is nothing like that. It is not the fault of these various businesses. They didn't cause this. They were forced to shut down by the government through no fault of their own so this would in many ways be better described as compensation or restitution than any sort of bailout. We need to try to make sure that workers have jobs to return to when this is finally over.

      What was being proposed is providing them some sort of liquidity so that they can keep employees rather than having to fire them, and giving them access to capital in the form of loans so that businesses both large and small can remain afloat.

      This isn't just Wall Street. This is far from it. These are the companies that nearly all Americans work for both large and small. This is a huge swath of the American economy that has been put out of business overnight. They are suffering through no fault of their own just like the millions of people who have been laid off. If they fail and these companies become insolvent do you have a clue what the result would be? We'd be looking at the Great Depression II for the next decade.


      So getting back to what the Democrats are doing here.

      They are now pretending that they had no input into the Senate legislation but last week both Democrat and Republican committee chairs worked together on crafting planks for the Senate bill and adopted a large number of the ideas proposed by the House. Even Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, was expressing "delight and surprise" at the "bipartisan cooperation"[1] that took place.

      IOW, the Senate was on track to move forward with emergency legislation to address both the health crisis and economic emergency that we're facing due to the Chicom coronavirus. The proposals would have provided direct financial assistance to the American people and provided rapid relief for small businesses and their employees -- both which are needed to help stabilize the economy and protect jobs.

      But all that evaporated when Nancy Pelosi flew in from San Francisco on her broom after taking the week off causing it all to get tossed out the window. She convinced Schumer that since time is of the essence and because five Republican Senators are quarantined that this was the perfect opportunity to load the bill with pork barrel spending and things from the left's ideological wishlist[2], figuring that there would be no choice but to pass it.

      The cold hard fact is that the number of unemployment claims skyrocketed last week which is hardly a surprise given that the government is forcing businesses to shut their doors and send their employees home. In an effort to compensate Americans for the loss of jobs, businesses and income, the Senate tried to pass an emergency aid package but Senate Democrats killed it deciding instead to hold America hostage for political leverage and in an attempt to improve their own political prospects.

      So while millions of Americans have been forced out of your jobs, while businesses fail because they’ve been deemed "non-essential," the Democrats in Congress are using this to try to gain political power. They are happy to undermine relief efforts to compensate those whose lives and livelihoods are being destroyed. They have no problem with increasing the suffering. After all, if it means that they might stand a better of chance of seizing control of the White House, what’s a few thousand businesses permanently shuttering their doors and millions of Americans in the unemployment lines?[3].

      The same pair of clowns who in 2018 threatened to shut down the government in an attempt to benefit illegal aliens are now again playing politics with our lives. As Obama's then chief of staff Rahm Emanuel once infamously intoned "Never let a crisis go to waste." These two have taken that message to heart.





      1. On CNN this weekend Schumer told Wolf Blitzer

      "We’re having good bipartisan agreements. The initial bill Leader McConnell put in didn’t have any Democratic input and we were worried that we just try to put it on the floor and not consult Speaker Pelosi because the House still has to pass this. But actually, to my delight and surprise there has been a great deal of bipartisan cooperation thus far."


      2. Just a few of the things that the Democrats stuffed into the bill include:
      • Same day voting registration
      • Unprecedented collective bargaining powers for unions
      • Increased fuel emissions standards for airlines
      • Expansion of wind and solar tax credits
      • More money for the Kennedy Center


      All of which have absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with combatting the Chicom coronavirus

      3. Don't forget that it was Pelosi who told us that people losing their jobs ought to be regarded not as rising unemployment but rather an increase in "funemployment."

      "Now you don’t have to do that job that you’ve hated all along. If you want to go out and paint watercolors in Golden Gate Park and try to sell ’em down in the Tenderloin, you can do it. You no longer have to be a prisoner do a job that you don’t like."


      Moreover, that things like unemployment checks and food stamps are much better than creating jobs for the economy saying they provide a bigger bang for the buck


      She also said that they "creates jobs faster than almost any other initiative you can name" which begs the question if food stamps and unemployment are better than jobs, as she said, why would you want to create jobs at all? Could it be that she knows what she was spewing is a load of bovine scat?
      Last edited by rogue06; 03-24-2020, 10:49 AM. Reason: Linked to wrong post :doh:

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Slush fund... riiight. What a fantastic idea! Let's put together a slush fund and keep it quiet until JUST before the election so the truth can come out just in time to destroy our chances to keep the Senate. God you are a gullible moron...
        I never argued that you were smart, Bill. Fact is, there is no oversight as to who exactly that bailout money goes to, or what they need do with it. Trump, in his briefing, said that he'd be the oversight. Isn't that nice of him? I wonder how his businesses will make out in that deal? To accept a 500 billion dollar giveaway, completely controlled by the White House, with no strings attached, is the definition of gullible.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
          Which my post was not about just those struggling, but those who can’t pay unexpected expenses, so what? One can make 6 figures and still live check to check and struggle to pay unexpected expenses.
          Exactly! It's not about how much money you earn, it's about how good you are at managing it, a point that flew clear over carpe's head when he drug out the "poor people don't work hard and are frivolous spenders" canard.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            I never argued that you were smart, Bill. Fact is, there is no oversight as to who exactly that bailout money goes to, or what they need do with it.
            Of course there will be. It's called FOIA, dumbass. But it must be fun for ol' Chuckles and Nancy fun to scare you leftists into thinking that Congressional requests for funds are not discoverable... gullible rube.

            Trump, in his briefing, said that he'd be the oversight. Isn't that nice of him?
            Well, considering he has no say over the purse, it'd be up to the appropriations committee. Remind me who runs that again??

            I wonder how his businesses will make out in that deal?
            Probably not involved at all...

            To accept a 500 billion dollar giveaway, completely controlled by the White House, with no strings attached, is the definition of gullible.
            You are thoroughly ignorant on how congress works, aren't ya?
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              And this is what TSD looks like...
              Precisely. The Democrats don't give a crap about you and I. Their sole focus is and always has been to hurt Trump politically and seize power for themselves. It's mind boggling that anybody still continues to vote for them, but there are apparently a lot of very stupid people in this country.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                A trend in upward numbers really tells us little if we don’t know the reason why. We’ll likely see an upward trend as testing kits become more common and we begin to learn more about how the virus spreads and we become better at guessing who to else to test as we find people showing positive.
                Also, the more testing will push down the case mortality rate, since there are (probably) a lot who have this thing but are at no risk of dying.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                  The number of cases increasing at the percent you cited is EXACTLY what the increased testing discovered, Jim.



                  The reality is that more testing finds more cases. That isn't even debatable. It's common sense. So, trying to determine "mortality rates" based on deaths per positive test before the testing was available to the public is irresponsible on its face.

                  People that die from the virus will die whether they are tested or not. But scare mongering with hypothetical exponential infection numbers in the hundreds of millions is why no one can find a roll of Charmin...
                  But that’s what the numbers suggest unless drastic measures are put in place. It’s also worth noting that the current numbers are predominately from developed countries and many third world countries have only recently reported their first cases.

                  Social distancing is only a speed bump to give us more time to find a solution and people need to be aware of how serious the consequences could potentially be until that solution is found.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    The number of cases increasing at the percent you cited is EXACTLY what the increased testing discovered, Jim.



                    The reality is that more testing finds more cases. That isn't even debatable. It's common sense. So, trying to determine "mortality rates" based on deaths per positive test before the testing was available to the public is irresponsible on its face.

                    People that die from the virus will die whether they are tested or not. But scare mongering with hypothetical exponential infection numbers in the hundreds of millions is why no one can find a roll of Charmin...
                    Sometimes I think you check your brain on the alter of Trump and conservatism. I accounted for the differential increase associated with testing in my post. All you need to do is look at the exponential rise in the number of deaths. That tells you right there what the rate of infection increase is in the population with a delay of perhaps 1 week or so. Yes, SOME of the recent increase is due to increased testing. But the growth rate in DEATHS is independent of the rate of testing. The only things that is in doubt it the actual mortality rate itself, not the rate of spread of the disease.

                    We can look at S.Korea which has engaged in a MASSIVE testing and containment campaign. The mortality there is still 1.3%. And that is with a relatively young infected population. They have managed to keep a lid on the SPREAD, but the MORTALITY is still 1.3%. And that is a very real number because in S.Korea, since they have kept a lid on the spread, the number of deaths has been able to catch up with the number of cases a bit - yet the still have 2/3's of the cases active. Their current serious is also about 1% of their current active cases. So maybe it will come down a bit before it is over.

                    1% is still 8 to 9x what our hospitals can handle. And when you don't have medical care the mortality rate skyrockets, as we see in Italy and Iran.

                    Korea kept a lid on it by clamping down, locking down. That is the only way to keep a lid on it. If you don't, it spreads like wildfire and our hospitals are overwhelmed and our medical workers get sick which results in even more deaths due to lack of capacity to care for the sick.

                    This is what the reality is. What you are peddling is fantasy, wishful thinking based on pure ignorance.
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      They are trying to make sure that the GOP does not give away 500 billion dollars to companies that will squander it. There need to be controls on how the money is used. There needs to be paid leave for workers (or a supplement to state unemployment that will pay the actual salaries). This money needs to go to making sure the companies employee's and the companie's basic infrastructure remain intact across the space of the social distancing construct. They can't just take the money and give their CEO's big bonuses, or buy back their own stock etc.

                      The republican side does understand perhaps better than the democrats that a failed economy, a depression, is also a great strain on the nation and its people. As Trump pointed out, is the cure worse than the disease. That is not a fake concern, that is real. So you can't JUST focus on paying workers, but neither can you cow-tow to the corporate desire for profits. In fact, it might be a really good time for all corporations to eye break-even or a small loss with any eye toward taking profits (those that are profiting, e.g. amazon and medical equipment providers) and using it for the good of the nation in this time.

                      What manipulation looks like rogue is dismissing the real concerns of either side and not working to a balance of both concerns and a compromise where neither side gets exactly what they want. Both sides need to STOP the Trumpian era magnification of polarization and blaming of the other guy for things where there is shared responsibility. BOTH sides need to stop playing to their base.

                      And YOU and I are part of that. So STOP with the partisan crap and START posting constructive, real discussion of what needs to happen on BOTH sides. Because THEY are a reflection of US. And until YOU and I can figure out we are in this TOGETHER, THEY will continue to operate as they are.
                      You know, you're right. And I'm going to working on making that change. I was going to work to push "Trump Sycophant Disorder" as a response to "Trump Derangement Syndrome," but that is buying into exactly what is most wrong with this country today. My apologies for letting my frustrations and their accompanying dark side out to play.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Also, the more testing will push down the case mortality rate, since there are (probably) a lot who have this thing but are at no risk of dying.
                        Considering there is a presently unknown number of people who have it and show no symptoms that means the fatality rate is lower than we thought

                        New coronavirus can cause infections with no symptoms and sicken otherwise healthy people, studies show

                        Even Without Symptoms, Wuhan Coronavirus May Spread, Experts Fear

                        The latter is from the New York Times right before they decided to kowtow to the Chicoms and started proclaiming mentioning where it came from is racist.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Precisely. The Democrats don't give a crap about you and I. Their sole focus is and always has been to hurt Trump politically and seize power for themselves. It's mind boggling that anybody still continues to vote for them, but there are apparently a lot of very stupid people in this country.
                          I've never agreed with such sweeping commentaries. Some Democrats, I'm sure, behave as you describe. Most of the Democrats I know do not. Likewise, some of the Republicans I've met are all about money and the economy and everything else takes second place - but most are not. Caricatures seldom capture the truth.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Obviously we don't want another bailout like we had in 2008, but this is nothing like that. It is not the fault of these various businesses. They didn't cause this. They were forced to shut down by the government through no fault of their own so this would in many ways be better described as compensation or restitution than any sort of bailout. We need to try to make sure that workers have jobs to return to when this is finally over.

                            What was being proposed is providing them some sort of liquidity so that they can keep employees rather than having to fire them, and giving them access to capital in the form of loans so that businesses both large and small can remain afloat.

                            This isn't just Wall Street. This is far from it. These are the companies that nearly all Americans work for both large and small. This is a huge swath of the American economy that has been put out of business overnight. They are suffering through no fault of their own just like the millions of people who have been laid off. If they fail and these companies become insolvent do you have a clue what the result would be? We'd be looking at the Great Depression II for the next decade.


                            So getting back to what the Democrats are doing here.

                            They are now pretending that they had no input into the Senate legislation but last week both Democrat and Republican committee chairs worked together on crafting planks for the Senate bill and adopted a large number of the ideas proposed by the House. Even Chuck Schumer, the Senate Minority Leader, was expressing "delight and surprise" at the "bipartisan cooperation"[1] that took place.

                            IOW, the Senate was on track to move forward with emergency legislation to address both the health crisis and economic emergency that we're facing due to the Chicom coronavirus. The proposals would have provided direct financial assistance to the American people and provided rapid relief for small businesses and their employees -- both which are needed to help stabilize the economy and protect jobs.

                            But all that evaporated when Nancy Pelosi flew in from San Francisco on her broom after taking the week off causing it all to get tossed out the window. She convinced Schumer that since time is of the essence and because five Republican Senators are quarantined that this was the perfect opportunity to load the bill with pork barrel spending and things from the left's ideological wishlist[2], figuring that there would be no choice but to pass it.

                            The cold hard fact is that the number of unemployment claims skyrocketed last week which is hardly a surprise given that the government is forcing businesses to shut their doors and send their employees home. In an effort to compensate Americans for the loss of jobs, businesses and income, the Senate tried to pass an emergency aid package but Senate Democrats killed it deciding instead to hold America hostage for political leverage and in an attempt to improve their own political prospects.

                            So while millions of Americans have been forced out of your jobs, while businesses fail because they’ve been deemed "non-essential," the Democrats in Congress are using this to try to gain political power. They are happy to undermine relief efforts to compensate those whose lives and livelihoods are being destroyed. They have no problem with increasing the suffering. After all, if it means that they might stand a better of chance of seizing control of the White House, what’s a few thousand businesses permanently shuttering their doors and millions of Americans in the unemployment lines?[3].

                            The same pair of clowns who in 2018 threatened to shut down the government in an attempt to benefit illegal aliens are now again playing politics with our lives. As Obama's then chief of staff Rahm Emanuel once infamously intoned "Never let a crisis go to waste." These two have taken that message to heart.


                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]43484[/ATTACH]



                            1. On CNN this weekend Schumer told Wolf Blitzer

                            "We’re having good bipartisan agreements. The initial bill Leader McConnell put in didn’t have any Democratic input and we were worried that we just try to put it on the floor and not consult Speaker Pelosi because the House still has to pass this. But actually, to my delight and surprise there has been a great deal of bipartisan cooperation thus far."


                            2. Just a few of the things that the Democrats stuffed into the bill include:
                            • Same day voting registration
                            • Unprecedented collective bargaining powers for unions
                            • Increased fuel emissions standards for airlines
                            • Expansion of wind and solar tax credits
                            • More money for the Kennedy Center


                            All of which have absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with combatting the Chicom coronavirus

                            3. Don't forget that it was Pelosi who told us that people losing their jobs ought to be regarded not as rising unemployment but rather an increase in "funemployment."

                            "Now you don’t have to do that job that you’ve hated all along. If you want to go out and paint watercolors in Golden Gate Park and try to sell ’em down in the Tenderloin, you can do it. You no longer have to be a prisoner do a job that you don’t like."


                            Moreover, that things like unemployment checks and food stamps are much better than creating jobs for the economy saying they provide a bigger bang for the buck


                            She also said that they "creates jobs faster than almost any other initiative you can name" which begs the question if food stamps and unemployment are better than jobs, as she said, why would you want to create jobs at all? Could it be that she knows what she was spewing is a load of bovine scat?
                            but you are, as usual, only telling half the story. You leave out the shenanigans of the republicans and emphasize (likely in a partially distorted form) what democrats are doing.

                            AGAIN - this is not a partisan thing. And this sort of partisan bickering is insane. I'll grant you that if the democrats are trying to pork it up to feed their own special interests, that is bad. But what about the republicans doing the exact same thing? Isn't that bad too?

                            And given in a time like this when selfish, greedy, leaders on both sides are still playing games, how exactly does that support the idea powerful businessmen - that are made of the same stuff congressmen and senators are - can by 'trusted' to do the right thing with the money? That is IDIOTIC. Many of them will NOT do the right thing. Some of them will - my hat is off to those in corporate leadership with a conscience. But the incidence of psychopathy and narcissism is MUCH higher in CEO's than the general population.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho..._the_workplace

                            Source: above

                            A 2011 study of Australian white-collar managers found that 5.76 percent could be classed as psychopathic and another 10.42 percent dysfunctional with psychopathic characteristics.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            As compared to 1% for the general population.

                            --

                            And without safe-guards, they will do whatever the heck they want - whatever benefits them the most. It is very important this much DEPT incurred for the sake of those hundreds of thousands or million that will die without flattening the curve must not be squandered.


                            this is just what it it is. And only fools believe otherwise.
                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • Sorry Jim but even Schumer admitted that they had pretty much worked out a bipartisan deal saying "We’re having good bipartisan agreements" and that "to my delight and surprise there has been a great deal of bipartisan cooperation."

                              But Pelosi went to him and got him to go along with her plan to hold America hostage. Effectively they decided to shoot out the tires on the truck that was going to try put out the fire for their own personal gain.

                              Now they're trying to spin what they've done to us as being for our good. smiley puke.gif
                              Last edited by rogue06; 03-24-2020, 11:11 AM.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                                I think it outrageous that we need to rely on foreign countries for real, hard, accurate, data on morbidity and mortality to create mathematical models for this epidemic. (the intereting case is Iceland, who has tested the entire population, and will continually test to track the disease's transmission; it is the epidemiologist's case study)

                                I am not in favor of lifting the recommendations on social distancing as some advocate (for the economic benefits), but a tailored and flexible approach is one that has been recommended by some, but that needs detailed history and continuous testing. South Korea used a flexible approach based on testing,as is China now.
                                I agree with you there. Taking either extreme will hurt us greatly. Let's be smart about this. Let's not pretend the potential impact is not as dire as we can see it is in the numbers. Nor let us pretend we have infinite resourses with which to ride out the storm in a way that leaves a minimum of deaths. Ignorance, partisanship, petty bickering, these are all three our mortal enemies here.

                                But I'm not seeing a great deal from many posting here that would lead me to have a great deal of hope we can move beyond pettiness and ignorance to a real solution.
                                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                                Comment

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