Coronavirus Outbreak...

[seanD]

First of all, Trump does not act like a dictator. Not even close. It's a specious accusation.

Second, you seem to not understand exactly what the National Emergent Act is. It must be approved by Congress, it is limited, and it can not be used to suspend Constitutionally protected rights. For instance, Lincoln's decision to suspend habeas corpus during the Civil War was struck down by the Supreme Court (but he did it anyway), and

"Harry Truman declared the use of emergency powers in Executive Order 10340 when he seized private steel mills that failed to produce steel because of a labor strike in 1952. With the Korean War ongoing, Truman asserted that he could not wage war successfully if the economy failed to provide him with the material resources necessary to keep the troops well-equipped. The U.S. Supreme Court, however, rejected the argument in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, voting 6-3 that neither Commander in Chief powers nor any claimed emergency powers gave the President the authority to unilaterally seize private property without Congressional authority."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/emergency_powers

So even with a declaration of emergency powers, the president would not be within his Constitutional limits to suspend travel between states. Yet maniacs like carpe want him to do exactly that.

I'm compelled to believe Water's being sarcastic.

[carpedm9587]

First of all, Trump does not act like a dictator. Not even close. It's a specious accusation.

Second, you seem to not understand exactly what the National Emergent Act is. It must be approved by Congress, it is limited, and it can not be used to suspend Constitutionally protected rights. For instance, Lincoln's decision to suspend habeas corpus during the Civil War was struck down by the Supreme Court (but he did it anyway), and

"Harry Truman declared the use of emergency powers in Executive Order 10340 when he seized private steel mills that failed to produce steel because of a labor strike in 1952. With the Korean War ongoing, Truman asserted that he could not wage war successfully if the economy failed to provide him with the material resources necessary to keep the troops well-equipped. The U.S. Supreme Court, however, rejected the argument in Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, voting 6-3 that neither Commander in Chief powers nor any claimed emergency powers gave the President the authority to unilaterally seize private property without Congressional authority."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/emergency_powers

So even with a declaration of emergency powers, the president would not be within his Constitutional limits to suspend travel between states. Yet maniacs like carpe want him to do exactly that.

Note the emphasized part of your post. Trump is not even TRYING to get that congressional authority during a crisis, and I suspect it is for the reasons I have previously cited.

[lilpixieofterror]

Yeah it republic became the empire.

It’s not about being a dictator or not! It’s about effectively using the powers available to him when it’s required. He saw it fit to use the very same powers to direct funding for his wall, he should use it now to get the states their ventilators.

And, last I checked, walls nor ventilators can be built overnight.

[Mountain Man]

He doesn't have to have the actual authority, he has the bully pulpit and those red state governors who bend the knee to him would likely do what he suggested. He is suggesting the opposite, still implying it's not that serious and that states should do as they please. It's called leadership, and he is failing at it.

And last time Trump used the "bully pulpit" saying he doesn't bother speaking with those governors who are critical of the people working for him, y'all screamed and hollered about what a terrible person he was.

Make up your minds!

[lilpixieofterror]

So this is a tangent to this thread, and I'm not going to engage in a back and forth about it, but OBP's post and my response has been rumbling around in my head as I clean the garage and prepare for tomorrow's trip. On December 9th, 2018, my two sons got into a fight that escalated more than it should have and ended up with one of them at the emergency room to get a badly bruised and possibly broken arm looked at. My wife and I were traveling at the time and I reacted to the call and the news by first addressing the immediate need, and then going down to the bar and getting drunk. I was so drunk that I apparently came back to the room and passed out on the bathroom floor. The entire event from going down to the bar until I awoke the next morning in my bed is not in my memories - so I had a blackout. My wife told me all that happened rather matter-of-factly and without accusation. On December 10th, I made the decision that I was abusing alcohol and it had to stop. I did not, and frankly do not, know if I was/am an alcoholic, but I had no desire to do the "AA" thing. So I told my wife I would stop drinking completely - no exceptions - and if I failed to keep that promise to myself, I would start a formal recovery process. I've been sober since and it frankly has not been a major effort.

It dawns on me that I have a similar problem with respect to trolling. Responding to trolls is a form of addiction. Not being able to resist correcting a misrepresentation or outright lie (and some do it so frequently I no longer think it is unintentional) is a form of pride and is also a form of addiction. I am clearly capable of trolling, given that is what I was doing to MM for several pages in this very thread. And I do not enjoy that part of me anymore than I enjoy the part of me that is capable of getting blindingly drunk.

So I'm going to make the same commitment now that I made to my wife. I'm going to stop responding to trolls, lies, and misrepresentation, and keep the conversation about the issues. While it is tempting to simply identify individuals that it is no longer worth responding to, people are not bottles of booze. The alcohol never changes - but people can and I'd like to think everyone is capable of changing their behavior. So I'm not going to avoid anyone who trolls - I simply am not going to respond to any post that has elected to take the insulting, condescending, name-calling, trolling, personal-attack path and will limit myself to those interested in serious discussions about the issues.

And as with the alcohol - if I cannot keep that promise, I'm going to admit that I cannot handle this place without devolving being a troll myself and bid ya'll goodbye.

Let's see if that sticks as well as the commitment to stop drinking.

Trolling (carp definition) - anyone that doesn’t agree with my viewpoint.

Blames others, can’t take responsibility for his own actions, gaslights his opponents, accuses them of things they didn’t do, yet we’re trolling the innocent Carp.

You brought this up, not anyone else. There’s no logical reason that small town USA needs to take the same actions as NYC because small town USA isn’t NYC. Yet you want Trump to take unilateral and unconstitutional actions. It’s insane and rather than admit it’s a bad idea, you blame everyone else, but yourself.

[demi-conservative]

A hallmark of great leadership is not giving way to the single-minded underlings but balancing all the concerns. Medical doctors want a hard quarantine, CDC and FDA are being bureaucratic, companies don't want to comply with production orders, economists fret about the unemployment, states with big cities aren't locking down as hard as they should, while the rural states don't need lockdown at all.

It's difficult especially when you don't have absolute power, but Trump is doing alright.

"Drump is Hitler!!!!" -----------> "Trump please be dictator now!!!!!!!"

You are never going to live it down.

[JimL]

And last time Trump used the "bully pulpit" saying he doesn't bother speaking with those governors who are critical of the people working for him, y'all screamed and hollered about what a terrible person he was.

Make up your minds!

Wrong governors, MM.

[shunyadragon]

Fauci and others are mirroring my predictions of the natural bell curve of the course of the virus I predicted a month ago, and not repeating his bogus conflicting predictions of 'being in control,' the bogus 15 and 45 predictions, and the odd incometant prediction of the possible 100,000 to 240,000 fatalities.

The problem is that his making the bogus claim like the government measures are the cause of the present bell curve we are now observing, like the false claims of China. Yes, we can decrease the fatalities and number of cases, but the virus does what the virus does, and the over all bell curve of the coronavirus course is a natural curve, just like in China, and previous virus pandemics..

The late inconsistent response by China and the USA guaranteed a high infection and fatality rate.

[Mountain Man]

Note the emphasized part of your post. Trump is not even TRYING to get that congressional authority during a crisis, and I suspect it is for the reasons I have previously cited.

Of course you're convinced of that.

[Mountain Man]

Wrong governors, MM.

I believe this is known as a failure to see the forest because the trees are blocking your view.

[Mountain Man]

So this is a tangent to this thread, and I'm not going to engage in a back and forth about it, but OBP's post and my response has been rumbling around in my head as I clean the garage and prepare for tomorrow's trip. On December 9th, 2018, my two sons got into a fight that escalated more than it should have and ended up with one of them at the emergency room to get a badly bruised and possibly broken arm looked at. My wife and I were traveling at the time and I reacted to the call and the news by first addressing the immediate need, and then going down to the bar and getting drunk. I was so drunk that I apparently came back to the room and passed out on the bathroom floor. The entire event from going down to the bar until I awoke the next morning in my bed is not in my memories - so I had a blackout. My wife told me all that happened rather matter-of-factly and without accusation. On December 10th, I made the decision that I was abusing alcohol and it had to stop. I did not, and frankly do not, know if I was/am an alcoholic, but I had no desire to do the "AA" thing. So I told my wife I would stop drinking completely - no exceptions - and if I failed to keep that promise to myself, I would start a formal recovery process. I've been sober since and it frankly has not been a major effort.

It dawns on me that I have a similar problem with respect to trolling. Responding to trolls is a form of addiction. Not being able to resist correcting a misrepresentation or outright lie (and some do it so frequently I no longer think it is unintentional) is a form of pride and is also a form of addiction. I am clearly capable of trolling, given that is what I was doing to MM for several pages in this very thread. And I do not enjoy that part of me anymore than I enjoy the part of me that is capable of getting blindingly drunk.

So I'm going to make the same commitment now that I made to my wife. I'm going to stop responding to trolls, lies, and misrepresentation, and keep the conversation about the issues. While it is tempting to simply identify individuals that it is no longer worth responding to, people are not bottles of booze. The alcohol never changes - but people can and I'd like to think everyone is capable of changing their behavior. So I'm not going to avoid anyone who trolls - I simply am not going to respond to any post that has elected to take the insulting, condescending, name-calling, trolling, personal-attack path and will limit myself to those interested in serious discussions about the issues.

And as with the alcohol - if I cannot keep that promise, I'm going to admit that I cannot handle this place without devolving being a troll myself and bid ya'll goodbye.

Let's see if that sticks as well as the commitment to stop drinking.

Apparently it was too hard for you to simply write, "I apologize for being a hypocrite."

[Mountain Man]

So here's a question I thought of today on my grocery run: why aren't we hearing stories of grocery store workers dropping like flies? They're in close contact with hundreds of people a day, some of whom are likely carrying the virus, yet I've heard nothing about stores having to shutdown due to sick employees. I wonder why?

[carpedm9587]

Actually - I am sorry to have been engaging in trolling at the same time I was pointing out that behavior in others. It was indeed, hypocritical.

[carpedm9587]

So here's a question I thought of today on my grocery run: why aren't we hearing stories of grocery store workers dropping like flies? They're in close contact with hundreds of people a day, some of whom are likely carrying the virus, yet I've heard nothing about stores having to shutdown due to sick employees. I wonder why?

Probably because grocery stores are largely minimum wage jobs requiring little training and 10M people just filed for unemployment. Our local store is constantly hiring and the staff tells me that the retention rate has plummeted. Initially it was people who quit because they didn't want to take the chance and "be on the front lines." Now it's apparently people who don't feel well.

I suspect you will also see a difference depending on where the grocery store is located (i.e., population density).

[Terraceth]

Probably because grocery stores are largely minimum wage jobs requiring little training and 10M people just filed for unemployment. Our local store is constantly hiring and the staff tells me that the retention rate has plummeted. Initially it was people who quit because they didn't want to take the chance and "be on the front lines." Now it's apparently people who don't feel well.

I suspect you will also see a difference depending on where the grocery store is located (i.e., population density).

Two other factors: The demographics of grocery store workers skew heavily towards the the young, that is, the population that's the least likely to have problems with the virus (when I worked at a grocery store I remember only one old guy working there and he was in incredible shape for his age). Furthermore, because the workers are coming in contact with so many people I expect they are especially diligent in taking precautions to avoid getting sick, like sanitizing hands and avoiding touching your face.