Coronavirus Outbreak...

[firstfloor]

Beginning of the covid-19 meltdown? Phase one: the Trump administration goes nuts; never mind the data, trust Trump’s brain.

The virus, meanwhile, perfectly reflects human behaviour; it’s not in control, you are.

The POTUS with the brittle spirit moves to withhold WHO funding; a blame passing maneuver?

[carpedm9587]

Beginning of the covid-19 meltdown? Phase one: the Trump administration goes nuts; never mind the data, trust Trump’s brain.

The virus, meanwhile, perfectly reflects human behaviour; it’s not in control, you are.

The POTUS with the brittle spirit moves to withhold WHO funding; a blame passing maneuver?

Of course. His mantra is, "The buck stops there - but any praise can be directed to me" along with "If Obama did it or touched it, it has to go."

[oxmixmudd]

As predicted...the noise from many on the right is increasing. Fauci is doing harm. The economy is at risk.

Little surprise. The economy is the constant drum on which so many on the right beat, and has been Trump's constant (false) claim to fame. Before the pandemic, the economy was doing fairly well, but Trump had little to do with it. He inherited a strong economy. The numbers reveal it all.

During the second Obama administration, unemployment dropped five points. During Trump's it dropped one point. Of course we can claim that there wasn't much more room for Trump to drop it, but that is because it was already approaching historic lows. Trump is like the pitcher who gets credit for winning the game when he comes in at the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs and strikes out the last batter. The heavy lifting was already done.

Trump's repeated boast during the campaign was that the economy would/should be running at 3% GDP growth, and 4% might even be possible. Take a look at the first 3 years of Trump's term and it averages to 2.5% growth. Run the numbers of exactly the same quarters in Obama's second term, and you get almost exactly the same number. The difference? Trump accomplished it by goosing the economy for a few quarters with a massive tax cut that primarily went to the wealthy, at the cost of an almost $1T annual deficit. Obama accomplished it while simultaneously cutting the deficit from the $1T highs it had reached in 2009 because of the stimulus (a stimulus I mostly opposed).

But Trump is very good at deflecting blame for anything that puts him in a bad light, and taking credit for anything that puts him in a good light, even if he had little/nothing to do with it. And the reality is that many people, in the face of a good economy, vote for the incumbent. So Trump had a shot - until the pandemic and our response gutted the economy. Unemployment is predicted to climb into the 10-20% range, and GDP growth is plummeting. Both the U.S. and the world are almost certainly heading for a recession that could make the 2008/2009 recession pale by comparison. Back then, we had reasonably effective leadership at the helm. Now we have a buffoon...so I'm not particularly optimistic about the likely outcomes. And the buffoon in the oval office knows that he is losing his primary claim to success: the economy. So he has to trade that for human lives - and that puts him between a rock and the proverbial hard place. It couldn't happen to a nicer guy...

My prediction: he will go in the direction of "open the country" and try to rescue the economy. The result will be a resurgence of the pandemic within the next 6 months. If other countries continue to mitigate the pandemic and are successful, when our pandemic resurges, the U.S. will be isolated from other countries who do not want the pandemic to spread back into their countries, and our economy will be trashed again - and perhaps worse.



ETA: I should note I also oppose most of the current stimulus package. Fiscal responsibility has gone completely out the window. The party that talks so much about "stealing from the rich" is largely silent while we steal from generations that are not even born yet and cannot object. So too are Democrats. It's criminal, IMO.

I think 'open the economy' is easier said than done. As was noted in another thread, we are starting to see shutdowns of meat processing plants due to the spread of Covid-19 in the worker population there. It's not like you can just have a return to a perfect economy by sending people back to work. Or do we suppose that once somebody dies from it at a plant that the other workers will not 'call in sick' or simply strike until the plant is thoroughly cleaned (if the management is of a mind to accept their workers dying as collateral damage subject to the desire for profit). Smithfield was proactive, shutting the plant, paying their workers during the shutdown. Of course, a lot more of them would have gotten sick w/o the shutdown because there would be a lot more casual contacts with asymptomatic carriers.

And then there are all those migrant workers everybody hates and want to keep from coming in that the farmers need. What happens when the farmers can't properly tend to their crops because the migrant workers are sick and/or banned from entry?

The focus right now needs to be ramping up the production of reagents for testing, developing anti-body tests, developing faster and accurate tests and keeping the critical workers as well as possible so we don't have shortages of food and other necessities.

It is not that the Economy crashing is not bad, it is that the bad can only be mitigated, it can't be stopped. We need really savvy people driving this. We need strong leadership with an eye to the detail making sure that one action doesn't create a worse reaction.

The government we have is mostly incompetent relative to the task at hand. The government we have thrives on conflict, not unity, gut feelings rather than science, cronyism rather than technical competence. WE need competent people in charge.

What are we getting? Morons believing conspiracy theories about bill gates and fauci, demanding he be fired.

[carpedm9587]

I think 'open the economy is easier said than done. As was noted in another thread, we are starting to see shutdowns of meat processing plants due to the spread of Covid-19 in the worker population there. It's not like you can just have a return to a perfect economy by sending people back to work. Or do we suppose that once somebody dies from it at a plant that the other workers will not 'call in sick' or simply strike until the plant is thoroughly cleaned (if the management is of a mind to accept their workers dying as collateral damage subject to the desire for profit). Smithfield was proactive, shutting the plant, paying their workers during the shutdown. Of course, a lot more of them would have gotten sick w/o the shutdown because there would be a lot more casual contacts with asymptomatic carriers.

The focus right now needs to be ramping up the production of reagents for testing, developing anti-body tests, developing faster and accurate tests and keeping the critical workers as well as possible so we don't have shortages of food and other necessities.

It is not that the Economy crashing is not bad, it is that the bad can only be mitigated, it can't be stopped. We need really savvy people driving this. We need strong leadership with an eye to the detail making sure that one action doesn't create a worse reaction.

The government we have is mostly incompetent relative to the task at hand. The government we have thrives on conflict, not unity, gut feelings rather than science, cronyism rather than technical competence.

Pretty much agreed on all points...

Very dangerous for you to be agreeing with an obvious heathen (not to mention apostate) on a Christian forum.

[seanD]

I think 'open the economy' is easier said than done. As was noted in another thread, we are starting to see shutdowns of meat processing plants due to the spread of Covid-19 in the worker population there. It's not like you can just have a return to a perfect economy by sending people back to work. Or do we suppose that once somebody dies from it at a plant that the other workers will not 'call in sick' or simply strike until the plant is thoroughly cleaned (if the management is of a mind to accept their workers dying as collateral damage subject to the desire for profit). Smithfield was proactive, shutting the plant, paying their workers during the shutdown. Of course, a lot more of them would have gotten sick w/o the shutdown because there would be a lot more casual contacts with asymptomatic carriers.

And then there are all those migrant workers everybody hates and want to keep from coming in that the farmers need. What happens when the farmers can't properly tend to their crops because the migrant workers are sick and/or banned from entry?

The focus right now needs to be ramping up the production of reagents for testing, developing anti-body tests, developing faster and accurate tests and keeping the critical workers as well as possible so we don't have shortages of food and other necessities.

It is not that the Economy crashing is not bad, it is that the bad can only be mitigated, it can't be stopped. We need really savvy people driving this. We need strong leadership with an eye to the detail making sure that one action doesn't create a worse reaction.

The government we have is mostly incompetent relative to the task at hand. The government we have thrives on conflict, not unity, gut feelings rather than science, cronyism rather than technical competence. WE need competent people in charge.

What are we getting? Morons believing conspiracy theories about bill gates and fauci, demanding he be fired.

"Opening the economy" is a moot point. The damage is already done, regardless of what is done moving forward.

[carpedm9587]

"Opening the economy" is a moot point. The damage is already done, regardless of what is done moving forward.

Relax, Sean. This too shall pass...

[oxmixmudd]

Pretty much agreed on all points...

Very dangerous for you to be agreeing with an obvious heathen (not to mention apostate) on a Christian forum.

Probably. But I'd rather be found agreeing with a 'heathen'* about the truth, than supporting a Christian in a lie.


*Jesus makes clear that his standard is not the outward religiosity, but who the inward person is that counts:

Source: Matthew 7:21-23

1 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

© Copyright Original Source

[carpedm9587]

Probably. But I'd rather be found agreeing with a 'heathen'* about the truth, than supporting a Christian in a lie.


*Jesus makes clear that his standard is not the outward religiosity, but who the inward person is that counts:


[CITE]Matthew 7:21-23]1 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’[/CITE]

[CITE]Matthew 25:31-46]31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”[/cite]

Well, if I'm going to be consistent, I have to say I don't really do scriptural quotes. I do understand your motivation for providing them, but my experience is that people can pull out of the bible whatever they wish to support whatever position they want to defend. That being said, this has always been one of my favorite Jesus stories, along with the beatitudes.

[oxmixmudd]

Well, if I'm going to be consistent, I have to say I don't really do scriptural quotes. I do understand your motivation for providing them, but my experience is that people can pull out of the bible whatever they wish to support whatever position they want to defend. That being said, this has always been one of my favorite Jesus stories, along with the beatitudes.

Understood. To me there are a lot of questions raised by these verses. Questions that make me pause. I'm one of those that thinks I'm on the right path, at least mostly. Which means I could easily find my self on the wrong side of those quotes. So I must heed their warnings at least as much as anyone for whom I think they might apply.

And they make me wonder when I see supposed 'heathens' who show much more compassion than supposed 'Christians' if maybe I/we are not missing something.

[carpedm9587]

Understood. To me there are a lot of questions raised by these verses. Questions that make me pause. I'm one of those that thinks I'm on the right path, at least mostly. Which means I could easily find my self on the wrong side of those quotes. So I must heed their warnings at least as much as anyone for whom I think they might apply.

And they make me wonder when I see supposed 'heathens' who show much more compassion than supposed 'Christians' if maybe I/we are not missing something.

For the emphasized part of your post, I think that statement would be made by just about anyone. We all tend to think we are on the right path. If we thought we were on the wrong path, we'd quickly start casting about for the right one.

And I suspect you would be a bit surprised at the degree to which the basic teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth continue to influence my life and choices. Much of what I would consider to be the core of a healthy morality is reflected in those teachings. I find such attractive elements in many religious writings, as well as many secular writings, but the teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth have always rung a bell for me in a way that qualitatively differs from many others.

Of course - I was raised Christian, so it may just be my comfort level speaking...

[seanD]

Relax, Sean. This too shall pass...

I'm going to hold you to all these posts, trust me.

[carpedm9587]

I'm going to hold you to all these posts, trust me.

Hold me to them?

Exactly how are you going to do that? I'm truly curious.

Or are you suggesting that you don't think "this too shall pass" and the world as we know it is over?

[carpedm9587]

OK - an attempt to ask this question in a different thread failed abysmally, so I'll try it in this venue and see if I can make progress. Let's keep it simple.

Q1: Is a fear-based message appropriate or inappropriate for motivating behavior.

If the answer to Q1 is "yes," then why was there so much objection to the "fear-based" message concerning the epidemic.
If the answer to Q2 is "no," then why are people promoting the fear-based message about the horrors awaiting us due to a struggling economy and possible depression?

This seems a fairly clear set of questions, but it apparently wasn't clear enough to some.

Just so you know, MM and Pix, your responses won't be responded to unless you actually answer the questions being asked.

[Watermelon]

Understood. To me there are a lot of questions raised by these verses. Questions that make me pause. I'm one of those that thinks I'm on the right path, at least mostly. Which means I could easily find my self on the wrong side of those quotes. So I must heed their warnings at least as much as anyone for whom I think they might apply.

And they make me wonder when I see supposed 'heathens' who show much more compassion than supposed 'Christians' if maybe I/we are not missing something.

There are numerous christians that would also agree with these heathens, myself included, on all these issues you are routinely criticized on this site for.

I think people can see the same situation and hold vastly different positions due to a difference in priorities, experience or just personal opinion affecting the reasoning for holding a particular position. A position could be seen as lacking compassion because they felt this situation requires something else to be prioritized over compassion.

Both positions could be based on a genuine desire to act in the best interest of our neighbours and isn’t that what differentiates the sheep and goats?

I personally view that passage as us being both sheep and goat, a shoat if you will (at least that’s what I think I’d be) and it represents our separation from sin as we enter heaven since jerks aren’t allowed in there and we all have a part of us that’s a jerk.

[EvoUK]

There are numerous christians that would also agree with these heathens, myself included, on all these issues you are routinely criticized on this site for.

I think people can see the same situation and hold vastly different positions due to a difference in priorities, experience or just personal opinion affecting the reasoning for holding a particular position. A position could be seen as lacking compassion because they felt this situation requires something else to be prioritized over compassion.

Both positions could be based on a genuine desire to act in the best interest of our neighbours and isn’t that what differentiates the sheep and goats?

I personally view that passage as us being both sheep and goat, a shoat if you will (at least that’s what I think I’d be) and it represents our separation from sin as we enter heaven since jerks aren’t allowed in there and we all have a part of us that’s a jerk.

I'm a 'heathen' so my opinion is of little value with regards to what I do or do not agree with, but I have found this whole sorry episode over the last 3+ years to be mildly confusing.

Originally, Trump was the result of 'least worst option' as far as many people on here were concerned - the SCOTUS being their key issue ('Hillary isn't POTUS, SCOTUS isn't Hillary's'). I do actually understand the reasoning for that- though naturally I disagree with the values concerned in wishing it.

What I don't understand is the same people who voted Trump as the least worst option have spent the last 3+ years defending him over actions that they clearly would have jumped all over an ideological political opponent for - evidenced by the anger over many of Obama's actions during his tenure which don't reach anywhere near the level of Trump's.

There has been some half-hearted 'I wish he wouldn't tweet so much/he can be a jack-ass sometimes' admissions, but I would have thought that voting him in to score a SCOTUS position doesn't stop them from then hold him to account for actions outside of that. I'd have actually pictured more posts such as that from Ox over the last 3+ years instead.