A tale of two countries:

[Sparko]

Hmmm. And Mussolini made the trains run on time!



You are being disingenuous.

The fact that trains ran on time doesn't excuse Mussolini from being a mass murdering fascist.

The fact that Cuba had a literacy program that Castro used to indoctrinate the people including children, while destroying any written material and books that were not approved by his regime is NOT a good thing. The fact that he was teaching people to read his propaganda while shooting others in the back of the head for being subversive is not a good thing.

I dare you to go around praising Mussolini's train service and Hitler's healthcare system and see if people don't see you rightly as a Nazi sympathizing fascist.

I posted that Babylon Bee story about how slavery wasn't all bad because they got free housing and food. It was supposed to point out how ridiculous such a thing would be, but you actually take it as a something correct and good. It wasn't irony to you.

That's why I said you are either a moron or trolling.

Bernie has been praising Cuba and Castro for 40/50 years. When he was called out on it, he came up with this lame 'but Castro had this great literacy program' as a deflection to draw attention away from the fact that he has been cheering on communists and dictators for over 40 years.

Don't be fooled. Sanders is only playing at "democratic socialism" because he knows no one is ready for his true beliefs, communism.

Bernie Sanders campaigned for the Socialist Workers Party in the 1980 and 1984 presidential campaigns and was investigated by the FBI for his ties to the Marxist group.

Sanders has always played down the extent of his involvement with the party, which included radicals who praised the Soviet Union and Cuban communists, and has denied ever being a member. Asked in 1988 about his role as an SWP elector in 1980, he said: "I was asked to put my name on the ballot and I did, that’s true." In fact, his ties to the party are deep and enduring.

The 2020 Democratic presidential primary candidate and United States senator from Vermont, now 77, often scoffs at comparisons between his brand of self-described "democratic socialism" and communism. In recent years, he has said he is merely interested in having the United States look more like Sweden, a social democracy with a broad welfare state but a well-functioning private sector.

But his personal files from his time as mayor of Burlington, from 1981 to 1989, archived at the University of Vermont, show that he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP and maintained a close relationship with its senior members. While Democrats campaigned for President Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984, Sanders spent the Reagan era supporting fringe Marxists with no chance of reaching the White House.

In 1980, Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" Andrew Pulley, the party's presidential candidate, who once said that American soldiers should "take up their guns and shoot their officers." Sanders was one of three electors for Pulley on the Vermont ballot, stating in a press release: "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

Four years later, he backed and campaigned for the SWP presidential nominee Mel Mason, a former Black Panther, saying it was important for there to be "fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." During the campaign, Mason praised the Russian and Chinese revolutions and said: "The greatest example of a socialist government is Cuba, and Nicaragua is right behind, but it's still developing."

During Pulley's White House run in 1980, he called for the abolition of the U.S. military and the nationalization of "virtually all private industry," as well as the abolition of the military budget and the establishment of "official ... 'solidarity' with the revolutionary regimes in Iran, Nicaragua, Grenada and Cuba," according to a New York Times report at the time.

During that same campaign, Pulley hailed the Cuban revolution as a model for the U.S. and claimed that "racism [had] been abolished" on the island. His running mate, Matilde Zimmermann, described the contention that Cubans lived under a dictatorship as American "propaganda."

"Working people here could learn a lot from the Cuban example," Zimmermann said .

In 1979, members of SWP's leadership circulated a document that called for "the destruction of the bourgeois state apparatus," arguing such an act "is a necessary prerequisite for the conquest of state power by the working class."

Archives of the SWP's official paper, the Militant, demonstrate a devotion to what its writers believe was the "true" purpose of the Russian Revolution, before it was supposedly corrupted by Josef Stalin.
...
"They were certainly a revolutionary group ," said Paul Kengor, a professor at Grove City College and an expert on 20th century communism. "One of the SWP's fans was Lee Harvey Oswald, who not only wanted to overthrow our government but actually assassinated our president, John F. Kennedy."

A flier in Sanders' archives shows that he was a featured speaker at the 1982 SWP "Campaign Kick-Off Rally" in Boston for the party's candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and Congress.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-in-reagan-era

And in case you are wondering, the SWP are actually full blown communists not socialist [the same way the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was communist] and always have been. Read on in the article.

[Sparko]

Don't you understand Simplicio, you're not allowed to think carefully. You've got to think in unnuanced black and white terms.

Cuba bad.

Therefore everything about it is bad, always and forever. It's wrong to admit nuance, as it hurts the brains of conservatives to think that hard. It's wrong to acknowledge that Cuba ever did anything good. They're just completely bad and so is their little dog too.

OK OK, I think I find find at least one good thing to say about Cuba. At least Castro didn't murder all of Cuba's citizens.

Not murdering people is good, right?

[simplicio]

The fact that trains ran on time doesn't excuse Mussolini from being a mass murdering fascist.

The fact that Cuba had a literacy program that Castro used to indoctrinate the people including children, while destroying any written material and books that were not approved by his regime is NOT a good thing. The fact that he was teaching people to read his propaganda while shooting others in the back of the head for being subversive is not a good thing.

I dare you to go around praising Mussolini's train service and Hitler's healthcare system and see if people don't see you rightly as a Nazi sympathizing fascist.

I posted that Babylon Bee story about how slavery wasn't all bad because they got free housing and food. It was supposed to point out how ridiculous such a thing would be, but you actually take it as a something correct and good. It wasn't irony to you.

That's why I said you are either a moron or trolling.

Bernie has been praising Cuba and Castro for 40/50 years. When he was called out on it, he came up with this lame 'but Castro had this great literacy program' as a deflection to draw attention away from the fact that he has been cheering on communists and dictators for over 40 years.

Don't be fooled. Sanders is only playing at "democratic socialism" because he knows no one is ready for his true beliefs, communism.

Bernie Sanders campaigned for the Socialist Workers Party in the 1980 and 1984 presidential campaigns and was investigated by the FBI for his ties to the Marxist group.

Sanders has always played down the extent of his involvement with the party, which included radicals who praised the Soviet Union and Cuban communists, and has denied ever being a member. Asked in 1988 about his role as an SWP elector in 1980, he said: "I was asked to put my name on the ballot and I did, that’s true." In fact, his ties to the party are deep and enduring.

The 2020 Democratic presidential primary candidate and United States senator from Vermont, now 77, often scoffs at comparisons between his brand of self-described "democratic socialism" and communism. In recent years, he has said he is merely interested in having the United States look more like Sweden, a social democracy with a broad welfare state but a well-functioning private sector.

But his personal files from his time as mayor of Burlington, from 1981 to 1989, archived at the University of Vermont, show that he supported and campaigned for the communist SWP and maintained a close relationship with its senior members. While Democrats campaigned for President Jimmy Carter in 1980 and Walter Mondale in 1984, Sanders spent the Reagan era supporting fringe Marxists with no chance of reaching the White House.

In 1980, Sanders "proudly endorsed and supported" Andrew Pulley, the party's presidential candidate, who once said that American soldiers should "take up their guns and shoot their officers." Sanders was one of three electors for Pulley on the Vermont ballot, stating in a press release: "I fully support the SWP's continued defense of the Cuban revolution."

Four years later, he backed and campaigned for the SWP presidential nominee Mel Mason, a former Black Panther, saying it was important for there to be "fundamental alternatives to capitalist ideology." During the campaign, Mason praised the Russian and Chinese revolutions and said: "The greatest example of a socialist government is Cuba, and Nicaragua is right behind, but it's still developing."

During Pulley's White House run in 1980, he called for the abolition of the U.S. military and the nationalization of "virtually all private industry," as well as the abolition of the military budget and the establishment of "official ... 'solidarity' with the revolutionary regimes in Iran, Nicaragua, Grenada and Cuba," according to a New York Times report at the time.

During that same campaign, Pulley hailed the Cuban revolution as a model for the U.S. and claimed that "racism [had] been abolished" on the island. His running mate, Matilde Zimmermann, described the contention that Cubans lived under a dictatorship as American "propaganda."

"Working people here could learn a lot from the Cuban example," Zimmermann said .

In 1979, members of SWP's leadership circulated a document that called for "the destruction of the bourgeois state apparatus," arguing such an act "is a necessary prerequisite for the conquest of state power by the working class."

Archives of the SWP's official paper, the Militant, demonstrate a devotion to what its writers believe was the "true" purpose of the Russian Revolution, before it was supposedly corrupted by Josef Stalin.
...
"They were certainly a revolutionary group ," said Paul Kengor, a professor at Grove City College and an expert on 20th century communism. "One of the SWP's fans was Lee Harvey Oswald, who not only wanted to overthrow our government but actually assassinated our president, John F. Kennedy."

A flier in Sanders' archives shows that he was a featured speaker at the 1982 SWP "Campaign Kick-Off Rally" in Boston for the party's candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and Congress.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-in-reagan-era

And in case you are wondering, the SWP are actually full blown communists not socialist [the same way the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was communist] and always have been. Read on in the article.

And what you fail to recognize is that the Babylon Bee article is also lampooning Christians, who managed to find a silver lining in the racism of US chattel slavery.

"Mussolini's trains" has entered the language with many layers of irony built into it. Might want to check it out.

The fact is that Cuba instituted a successful program on literacy at the same time significant changes were being made in the US with its segregation academies. And yes they did use it later for evil, a point which Sanders recognizes, judging from his comments. The literacy program is not a mere footnote, it was a basis for establishing support of the citizenry of Cuba, providing legitimacy, such as it was, for the new regime. And it was used for propaganda purposes across the world by the communists, especially in Africa.

And from the post, it seems that you think I am a Bernie supporter, which is real irony from the poster who noted that Hitler liked puppies. Yes, it pains me to no end to concede a point to Sanders. But is that the state of discussion on civil matters whether among Christians, between believers and not believers, or conservatives and liberals?

[Mountain Man]

Don't you understand Simplicio, you're not allowed to think carefully. You've got to think in unnuanced black and white terms.

Cuba bad.

Therefore everything about it is bad, always and forever. It's wrong to admit nuance, as it hurts the brains of conservatives to think that hard. It's wrong to acknowledge that Cuba ever did anything good. They're just completely bad and so is their little dog too.

Right. Who cares if Hitler's youth programs were really just indoctrination camps to teach bigotry and hatred to impressionable kids? At least he got them off the street, right?

Nuance.

[simplicio]

OK OK, I think I find find at least one good thing to say about Cuba. At least Castro didn't murder all of Cuba's citizens.

Not murdering people is good, right?

Juvenal was not referring to "not murdering people". The context of the discussion was on literacy, and the Cuban literacy initiative. While your example was clever it was also disingenuous.

The context of the discussion, and Bernie's comments, is about literacy.

Is teaching people to read wrong?

is achieving near universal literacy in under a year a social evil?

Cuba had about a 25% rate of illiteracy, but many counties in the US had similar rates of illiteracy (but not whites). When Brown v Board came down from on high, the responses included shutting down public schools, continuing to underfund education of black Americans, establishing excellent segregation academies for white students (it did take a few years for the white academies to get up to speed), and a campaign of massive resistance.

[Sparko]

And what you fail to recognize is that the Babylon Bee article is also lampooning Christians, who managed to find a silver lining in the racism of US chattel slavery.

"Mussolini's trains" has entered the language with many layers of irony built into it. Might want to check it out.

The fact is that Cuba instituted a successful program on literacy at the same time significant changes were being made in the US with its segregation academies. And yes they did use it later for evil, a point which Sanders recognizes, judging from his comments. The literacy program is not a mere footnote, it was a basis for establishing support of the citizenry of Cuba, providing legitimacy, such as it was, for the new regime. And it was used for propaganda purposes across the world by the communists, especially in Africa.

And from the post, it seems that you think I am a Bernie supporter, which is real irony from the poster who noted that Hitler liked puppies. Yes, it pains me to no end to concede a point to Sanders. But is that the state of discussion on civil matters whether among Christians, between believers and not believers, or conservatives and liberals?

used it later for evil? That was it's intended purpose from the get go. Indoctrination.

Fine, if you want to praise Castro like Sanders does, then you are as bad as he is. You will be known as the guy who defends Mussolini, Hitler and Castro. Great job!

Oh and when Trump said "there were some good people there" he wasn't talking about among the white supremacists, but conservative people there at the rally who were NOT white supremacists.

[Sparko]

Juvenal was not referring to "not murdering people". The context of the discussion was on literacy, and the Cuban literacy initiative. While your example was clever it was also disingenuous.

The context of the discussion, and Bernie's comments, is about literacy.

Is teaching people to read wrong?

when your only purpose to do it is to indoctrinate them, then yes. He wasn't educating them so they could go out into the world as free men, thinking for themselves and making their own way in the world. But as communist shills. His puppets.

is achieving near universal literacy in under a year a social evil?

when all they can read is communist propaganda then yes.


and again, the only reason Sanders even mentioned Literacy was as a deflection from the accusations he has been praising Castro for decades. "uh oh I only meant the literacy program, yeah that's the ticket. You can't get mad at me for praising literacy can you?"

if he spent years praising slavery and when called out on it said, "but slaves had free room and board, all their needs were taken care of. That's a good thing right?" would you buy it?

[simplicio]

used it later for evil? That was it's intended purpose from the get go. Indoctrination.

Fine, if you want to praise Castro like Sanders does, then you are as bad as he is. You will be known as the guy who defends Mussolini, Hitler and Castro. Great job!

Do you have any understanding of the history of Cuba and the rise of Castro? The grinding poverty with its associated illiteracy and lack of schools helped fuel support for the communists. Whether Castro had an altruistic motives for his stance on education is separate from the fact of what he accomplished.

So while the US was establishing white segregation academies and strangling black education in the US...... wait. Are you making an argument which implies you support segregation?

Oh and when Trump said "there were some good people there" he wasn't talking about among the white supremacists, but conservative people there at the rally who were NOT white supremacists.

And I commend your ability to red and parse out a statement....

Oh, and when Sanders said:

SANDERS: OK. You know what did? He initiated a major literacy program. There was a lot of folks in Cuba at that point who were illiterate. And he formed a literacy brigade -- you may read that -- he went out and they helped people learn to read and write. You know what? I think teaching people to read and write is a good thing.

I have been extremely consistent and critical of all authoritarian regimes all over the world, including Cuba, including Nicaragua, including Saudi Arabia, including China, including Russia. I happen to believe in democracy, not authoritarianism.

You see that as Sanders endorsing the whole of the communist agenda in Cuba?

[Mountain Man]

The fact is that Cuba instituted a successful program on literacy...

First of all, prior to Castro seizing power, Cuba was already a literate nation with one of the best education systems in Latin America:

Castro did not give Cubans literacy. Cuba already had one of the highest highest literacy rates in Latin America by 1950, nearly a decade before Castro took power, according to United Nations data. In 2016, the Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler debunked a politician’s claim that Castro’s rule significantly improved Cuban healthcare and education.

In today’s Cuba, children are taught by poorly paid teachers in dilapidated schools. Cuba has made less educational progress than most Latin American countries over the last 60 years.

https://libertyunyielding.com/2020/0...cuba-literacy/

After Castro violently overthrew the Cuban government, he turned the education system into a propaganda tool...

"The academic consensus seems to be that Fidel Castro’s government did increase the literacy rate of the island’s population, at the same time that it clearly used the literacy campaign for propaganda purposes," said Jorge Duany, director of the Cuban Research Institute at Florida International University.

...

The teaching materials came with a blunt political message. They were built on 15 lessons with titles that included "Fidel is Our Leader," "The Land is Ours," "Racial Discrimination" and "Housing." The final literacy exam was based on the lesson "The Cuban Fishermen."

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...n-skimps-prop/

Today, while children in Cuba are required to attend school up to ninth grade, all schools are state-run and only offer a pro-government curriculum. Students start the day proclaiming, “We will be like Che,” referring to Che Guevara, the Argentine revolutionary who fought alongside Fidel Castro in the Cuban revolution.

Likewise, all newspapers, radio and TV stations and most bookstores and libraries on the island are government operated and only offer the government’s viewpoint.

“Everyone can read but there is nothing to read,” goes an old Cuban joke.

https://localnews8.com/news/politics...ctually-about/

Fabiola Santiago, an immigrant who fled Cuba in 1969, tore into Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders following his praise for Fidel Castro’s education system.

Santiago, who now works as a columnist for the Miami Herald, grew up in Cuba under Castro’s regime. In a column published Tuesday, Santiago explained her outrage at Sanders, who is the front-runner in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination.

She described the torment she faced when her family announced that it would be fleeing Cuba for the United States. Santiago was bumped from the top rank in her school after she refused to wear the red scarf mandated by the Communist Party. Those loyal to Castro smeared her family members as “worms” for leaving Cuba.

Santiago claimed these were a few examples of how Castro’s schools forced students to be indoctrinated to support the party or face unthinkable consequences, such as her sympathetic teacher who “disappeared” after speaking out against Castro.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...240425431.html

But I suppose this isn't "nuanced" enough.

[simplicio]

First of all, prior to Castro seizing power, Cuba was already a literate nation with one of the best education systems in Latin America:

Castro did not give Cubans literacy. Cuba already had one of the highest highest literacy rates in Latin America by 1950, nearly a decade before Castro took power, according to United Nations data. In 2016, the Washington Post fact-checker Glenn Kessler debunked a politicianÂ’s claim that CastroÂ’s rule significantly improved Cuban healthcare and education.

In todayÂ’s Cuba, children are taught by poorly paid teachers in dilapidated schools. Cuba has made less educational progress than most Latin American countries over the last 60 years.

https://libertyunyielding.com/2020/0...cuba-literacy/

After Castro violently overthrew the Cuban government, he turned the education system into a propaganda tool...

"The academic consensus seems to be that Fidel CastroÂ’s government did increase the literacy rate of the islandÂ’s population, at the same time that it clearly used the literacy campaign for propaganda purposes," said Jorge Duany, director of the Cuban Research Institute at Florida International University.

...

The teaching materials came with a blunt political message. They were built on 15 lessons with titles that included "Fidel is Our Leader," "The Land is Ours," "Racial Discrimination" and "Housing." The final literacy exam was based on the lesson "The Cuban Fishermen."

https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...n-skimps-prop/

Today, while children in Cuba are required to attend school up to ninth grade, all schools are state-run and only offer a pro-government curriculum. Students start the day proclaiming, “We will be like Che,” referring to Che Guevara, the Argentine revolutionary who fought alongside Fidel Castro in the Cuban revolution.

Likewise, all newspapers, radio and TV stations and most bookstores and libraries on the island are government operated and only offer the governmentÂ’s viewpoint.

“Everyone can read but there is nothing to read,” goes an old Cuban joke.

https://localnews8.com/news/politics...ctually-about/

Fabiola Santiago, an immigrant who fled Cuba in 1969, tore into Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders following his praise for Fidel CastroÂ’s education system.

Santiago, who now works as a columnist for the Miami Herald, grew up in Cuba under CastroÂ’s regime. In a column published Tuesday, Santiago explained her outrage at Sanders, who is the front-runner in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination.

She described the torment she faced when her family announced that it would be fleeing Cuba for the United States. Santiago was bumped from the top rank in her school after she refused to wear the red scarf mandated by the Communist Party. Those loyal to Castro smeared her family members as “worms” for leaving Cuba.

Santiago claimed these were a few examples of how Castro’s schools forced students to be indoctrinated to support the party or face unthinkable consequences, such as her sympathetic teacher who “disappeared” after speaking out against Castro.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...240425431.html

But I suppose this isn't "nuanced" enough.

No, but it is typical.

Cuba had a 25% illiteracy rate. And it was higher than most of Latin America. Much of the poor rural areas did not have schools until Castro came along: The establisjhment of an educational system based on equality in the sense of no classes barred from education. Castro came to power at the height of the cold war, education and literacy, segregation in US education were prime propaganda tolls used by Moscow.

Desegregation was a cold war imperative, and became a communist imperative in the US. Yes, the NAACP was riddled with commies (the SLC has an uneasy situation concerning communists). It was the fiercest anti communist of the American electorate which was also the sharpest tool for the communists for the hearts and minds of the third world front of the cold war: white American segregation. At the same period when Moscow was pushing across the world, expanding its sphere of influence, the disparity of the US education system stood in contrast to the Cuban educational system.

Castro expanded education opportunities to those marginalized and excluded; US withdrew education opportunities for those marginalized and excluded.

Yes, Cuban education did wither and atrophy over the decades, just like its fleet of cars. That fact does not negate what happened in 1961, as well as the effect it had on people in Cuba and Africa.

And we in the USA use educational materials for partisan ends. The history textbook controversy on the downplaying of racism is an example.

[Juvenal]

Calling someone a troll who called some out as a moron is trolling.

Arguments from "no, you" do not constitute a defense, even if the counter-attack is valid.

The counter-attack isn't valid.

That's a double-fail, Sparklish.

[Mountain Man]

Castro expanded education opportunities to those marginalized and excluded...

"Education" here is simply a euphemism for "government indoctrination", and woe to those who attempted to think for themselves. This is what you're not getting. It's like someone starting a job training program for the unemployed and then using it as a means of extracting slave labor. If we applied your thinking, we would say, "This is good, because at least the people are working."

[Juvenal]

Never let it be said I won't acknowledge better as swiftly as I attack worse. This is better.

The fact that trains ran on time doesn't excuse Mussolini from being a mass murdering fascist.

And the fact that Mussolini was a mass murdering fascist didn't keep the trains from running on time, if they ran on time, which they didn't. No, really, they didn't. You're promoting propaganda that was facilitated by suppression of a free press in an attack against Castro.

I love this.

Shooting from the hip is impressive, when it's accurate.

The fact that Cuba had a literacy program that Castro used to indoctrinate the people including children, while destroying any written material and books that were not approved by his regime is NOT a good thing. The fact that he was teaching people to read his propaganda while shooting others in the back of the head for being subversive is not a good thing.

There were town criers before there was radio. Illiteracy has never been a bar to propaganda.

Book burnings aren't a good thing. Shooting subversives in the back of the head isn't a good thing.

Neither has anything to do with literacy.

Not even when they're shoved together pell mell into a sentence, like, say, Iraq and 9/11, and used as a justification for killing hundreds of thousands of subversives ... but enough about the slippery slope that brought us to Christians who wouldn't accept criticism from Christ himself without calling out, "No, you."

Bernie's support of the Castro regime is wide open for attack, and here you are, attacking his literacy program. Ready, aim, fire, in that order, no matter how well supported by every military victory in history, isn't good enough for you.

I dare you to go around praising Mussolini's train service and Hitler's healthcare system and see if people don't see you rightly as a Nazi sympathizing fascist.

Hitler's healthcare system?

Despite the counterfactuals, you're making a good point here. Propaganda works. Supporting Castro's literacy program is going to be seen as supporting Castro, even when it's being used by those who regularly defend support of Trump programs as not being in support of Trump.


... whups, company ... more later ...

[Sparko]

Do you have any understanding of the history of Cuba and the rise of Castro? The grinding poverty with its associated illiteracy and lack of schools helped fuel support for the communists. Whether Castro had an altruistic motives for his stance on education is separate from the fact of what he accomplished.

So while the US was establishing white segregation academies and strangling black education in the US...... wait. Are you making an argument which implies you support segregation?

what the hell? This is why I call you a troll. how in the world would you get that from anything I said. I am done with you, you weasel.

[One Bad Pig]

Never let it be said I won't acknowledge better as swiftly as I attack worse. This is better.



And the fact that Mussolini was a mass murdering fascist didn't keep the trains from running on time, if they ran on time, which they didn't. No, really, they didn't. You're promoting propaganda that was facilitated by suppression of a free press in an attack against Castro.

I love this.

You realize that this was something Sparko was accepting for the sake of argument, yes? Read more carefully, Jerk - or you were just burnishing your credentials again?