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On marriage: Utah

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  • On marriage: Utah

    Utah has started to decriminalize polygamy. The Republican controlled legislature has passed a bill (not signed into law yet) that makes polygamy a misdemeanor.

    The bill does not seem to be generating much news, or pushback, even within the religious right camp. Is marriage really about one man-one woman, or is that view valued only for its political currency?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN20L0DI

    Mayor Pete has brought the possibility of a first couple which is an denial, maybe an affront, to the traditional marriage norms. Could a bevy of first ladies be next?

    And polygamy is tied to one group, the LDS. The laws on polygamy were an issue for Utah's admission into the Union, the US instituted its laws on polygamy as a response to the rise of the LDS. Religious liberty issues come to the fore here.

    One-man one-woman, one man multiple women, one man one man, one woman one woman. Quite a few permutations available: do we toss them into some grab bag and pick and choose the one we want?
    Last edited by simplicio; 02-28-2020, 06:05 AM.

  • #2
    Might as well post this here instead of another thread, and this article ties the idea to polygamous mariage: https://www.christianheadlines.com/c...and-truth.html

    If you scroll down the page to the article with the intriguing title Will psychiatric euthanasia become legal in the US?

    John Roberts noted that much of the majority opinion on same sex marriage would apply to polygamy

    In a culture that prizes authenticity while devaluing objective truth, it is vital that Christians insist on both. How can we do this well?


    "Sincerity is not a valid test for truth" We Christians will substitute sincerity for any firmer and non-relativistic measures, but at what cost? And I humbly apologize if a profound question is triggering for Christians here. (Though I do not apologize to atheists, I suspect most atheists here can handle those sorts of discussions).

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm sure you know that polygamy is more biblically complicated than homosexuality. Apart from Matthew 19:7, it doesn't appear to be fully condemned (though I would agree that one quotation from Jesus is enough to do the trick). Also, polygamy never really stopped in the LDS world; it just stepped underground, and barely underground at that (with shows like Sister Wives being popular, and Warren Jeffs operating for years in plain view). Decriminalization does seem to be a tacit approval but is still a far cry from what's going on in regards to homosexuality.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by simplicio View Post
        Utah has started ...
        I kinda like ya, so I'd like to follow your threads, but you're starting way too many of them.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          I'm sure you know that polygamy is more biblically complicated than homosexuality.
          Complicatedness is an amusing metric.

          I would have said the complexity of the passages around the issue of homosexuality is greater, since the translation/interpretation of them has so many more issues and complications than do passages around polygamy.

          Apart from Matthew 19:7, it doesn't appear to be fully condemned (though I would agree that one quotation from Jesus is enough to do the trick).
          Well that passage appears to be condemning divorce... something most Christians today are, if not fine with, at least are widely tolerant of.

          Do you think polygamy will spread among Christians due to the general lack of condemnation of it in the bible? Or will the culture of monogamy and relative lack of demand for polygamy be enough to stop it spreading among Christians in other states?
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post

            Well that passage appears to be condemning divorce... something most Christians today are, if not fine with, at least are widely tolerant of.

            Do you think polygamy will spread among Christians due to the general lack of condemnation of it in the bible? Or will the culture of monogamy and relative lack of demand for polygamy be enough to stop it spreading among Christians in other states?
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post

            Well that passage appears to be condemning divorce... something most Christians today are, if not fine with, at least are widely tolerant of.
            You are correct. I'm not going to open that can of worms here, though. Though I am partial to the work of those such as Craig Keener and David Instone-Brewer who argue that Jesus' teachings on divorce are actually intended to protect innocent parties such as battered/cheated on spouses, I'm enough in the minority there that it would be a hopeless derail.

            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Do you think polygamy will spread among Christians due to the general lack of condemnation of it in the bible? Or will the culture of monogamy and relative lack of demand for polygamy be enough to stop it spreading among Christians in other states?
            I'd definitely go with the latter. There just doesn't seem to be much of a demand for it; there is an uptick in polyamory, but among a decidedly secular crowd that doesn't think as much of marriage of an institution, so I don't see that moving the needle. A number of things would have to change in Western culture for it to catch on; perhaps a move away from viewing marriage as a romantic institution, or a catastrophe that drastically altered demographic balances?
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
              Complicatedness is an amusing metric.

              I would have said the complexity of the passages around the issue of homosexuality is greater, since the translation/interpretation of them has so many more issues and complications than do passages around polygamy.
              I don't think so; there aren't any verses that come out and explicitly say "no polygamy". I know you would maintain the same could be said for homosexuality but I simply don't think the alternative proposed interpretations for most of the relevant seven verses seem tenable. At the very least, the verses do appear clearer than the relevant polygamy verses.

              To be fair, I'm not sure your average American churchgoer has given much thought to the issue.
              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                I'm sure you know that polygamy is more biblically complicated than homosexuality. Apart from Matthew 19:7, it doesn't appear to be fully condemned (though I would agree that one quotation from Jesus is enough to do the trick). Also, polygamy never really stopped in the LDS world; it just stepped underground, and barely underground at that (with shows like Sister Wives being popular, and Warren Jeffs operating for years in plain view). Decriminalization does seem to be a tacit approval but is still a far cry from what's going on in regards to homosexuality.
                Positive law, the laws enshrined in statutes and court decisions, and natural law are not always easy to see how they ought to coincide. The LDS set aside polygamy, and immediatley splinter groups formed, and the issue was rejection of authority of the LDS. And the polygamists note the religious liberty issue is involved.

                Setting aside natural law arguments, marriage has intrinsic value, intimately tied to the moral sphere. When viewed from that angle, they are largely the same. Chief justice Roberts noted the arguments made in favor of same sex marriage also apply to polygamy.

                Polygamy is something 'others' do. But the same can be said about homosexual unions, it is something 'others' do. The sanctity of marriage was important when confronting homosexual marriage, but not polygamy.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  I don't think so; there aren't any verses that come out and explicitly say "no polygamy". I know you would maintain the same could be said for homosexuality but I simply don't think the alternative proposed interpretations for most of the relevant seven verses seem tenable. At the very least, the verses do appear clearer than the relevant polygamy verses.

                  To be fair, I'm not sure your average American churchgoer has given much thought to the issue.
                  The average American churchgoer doesn't seem to think through many issues. They seem religiously anti-abortion, yet there's no verses against that in the bible.

                  Though, of course, it's also my view that the average American churchgoer misunderstands the core concepts of the NT, including justification, faith, works, sin, righteousness, the atonement etc. So them being wrong about the bible's stance on abortion, polygamy and homosexuality is the least of their issues IMO.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    The average American churchgoer doesn't seem to think through many issues. They seem religiously anti-abortion, yet there's no verses against that in the bible.

                    Though, of course, it's also my view that the average American churchgoer misunderstands the core concepts of the NT, including justification, faith, works, sin, righteousness, the atonement etc. So them being wrong about the bible's stance on abortion, polygamy and homosexuality is the least of their issues IMO.
                    And just how "religiously anti-abortion" is the average church goer, in your opinion?

                    And just what do you think is the relationship between scripture and the doctrines Christians accept? Serious question.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                      And just how "religiously anti-abortion" is the average church goer, in your opinion?
                      In the US, white evangelicals appear to associate their anti-abortion political stance with their Christianity. Which is a bit strange given their claims to base their views in the bible. Black evangelicals, and non-evangelicals don't appear to be remotely so committed to an anti-abortion political stance.

                      And just what do you think is the relationship between scripture and the doctrines Christians accept? Serious question.
                      The beliefs of protestant denominations today were largely formed in the Reformation era (~1600) around the interpretations of the bible current at that time. Unfortunately at that time the level of accuracy in understanding koine Greek among scholars was poor, and the understanding of the culture of the ancient world equally so. People doing the best they could made huge mistakes in how they interpreted key Greek terms, especially in Paul's writings. Unfortunately bible translations today tend to perpetuate these views by translating the Greek words in line with the theology taught by these denominations, so instead of translating common Greek words into their common English equivalents, an 'English' bible translation will be full of technical theological terms that an average English speaker would never use but which mean something to someone steeped in the theological technical terms used by protestant denominations. In this way their beliefs continue to be read into the text during translation and then read back out again when the layperson reads the translated texts.
                      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        In the US, white evangelicals appear to associate their anti-abortion political stance with their Christianity. Which is a bit strange given their claims to base their views in the bible. Black evangelicals, and non-evangelicals don't appear to be remotely so committed to an anti-abortion political stance.
                        There is a difference, major difference in views of white evangelicals and black evangelicals.

                        The abortion stance of Christians is more like a political stance, not a religious and moral one. To paraphrase one poster here, to disagree with an 'antiabortion' bill is to be pro-death-worshi, even if the bill is little more than posturing.

                        The beliefs of protestant denominations today were largely formed in the Reformation era (~1600) around the interpretations of the bible current at that time. Unfortunately at that time the level of accuracy in understanding koine Greek among scholars was poor, and the understanding of the culture of the ancient world equally so. People doing the best they could made huge mistakes in how they interpreted key Greek terms, especially in Paul's writings. Unfortunately bible translations today tend to perpetuate these views by translating the Greek words in line with the theology taught by these denominations, so instead of translating common Greek words into their common English equivalents, an 'English' bible translation will be full of technical theological terms that an average English speaker would never use but which mean something to someone steeped in the theological technical terms used by protestant denominations. In this way their beliefs continue to be read into the text during translation and then read back out again when the layperson reads the translated texts.
                        Seems that you approach it through the classical Protestant lens, if only there was a 'better' translation, then we could glean correct interpretation, derive correct principles. The Catholic approach is to view scripture as a special case of church writings, the first and most important of two thousand years of contemplation of the faith

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                          Seems that you approach it through the classical Protestant lens, if only there was a 'better' translation, then we could glean correct interpretation, derive correct principles. The Catholic approach is to view scripture as a special case of church writings, the first and most important of two thousand years of contemplation of the faith
                          I would say my interest lies in understanding what different people believed at different periods of time.

                          Church writings in 1000AD can shed light on different Christians' beliefs at that period of time, but don't tell you much about what various Christians in 300AD or 100AD believed. I definitely think anyone seriously interested in understanding what the various NT writers themselves were meaning can and should use the writings of the ante-Nicene Fathers to help them reach that goal. I would certainly say that the beliefs and teachings recorded in 2nd century AD Christian documents are orders of magnitude closer in theology to that of the New Testament writers than are the beliefs of modern protestants in the present day about what the NT says.

                          In general I would say that Judaism went through very large changes in theology and practice throughout OT times and then that Christianity went through similarly very large changes across 2000 years. In that sense if someone says they want to believe 'Church teachings' my question would be "which Church's teachings at which point in history?" I would say that Eastern Orthodoxy is the strand of Christianity that theologically has changed the least over time since New Testament times (probably primarily due to them speaking Greek and thus not introducing errors through translations, and not being heir to some of the more innovative thinkers like Augustine), but there have still been some fairly major theological developments in Eastern Orthodoxy too.

                          As an atheist I am saved from the burden of having to believe any particular one set of those teachings at any one particular time to be The Truth.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by simplicio View Post
                            Utah has started to decriminalize polygamy. The Republican controlled legislature has passed a bill (not signed into law yet) that makes polygamy a misdemeanor.
                            If something is decriminalized then it is no longer a criminal offense (usually it becomes an "ordinance violation" or the equivalent). Misdemeanors are criminal offenses.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              I would say my interest lies in understanding what different people believed at different periods of time.

                              Church writings in 1000AD can shed light on different Christians' beliefs at that period of time, but don't tell you much about what various Christians in 300AD or 100AD believed. I definitely think anyone seriously interested in understanding what the various NT writers themselves were meaning can and should use the writings of the ante-Nicene Fathers to help them reach that goal. I would certainly say that the beliefs and teachings recorded in 2nd century AD Christian documents are orders of magnitude closer in theology to that of the New Testament writers than are the beliefs of modern protestants in the present day about what the NT says.

                              In general I would say that Judaism went through very large changes in theology and practice throughout OT times and then that Christianity went through similarly very large changes across 2000 years. In that sense if someone says they want to believe 'Church teachings' my question would be "which Church's teachings at which point in history?" I would say that Eastern Orthodoxy is the strand of Christianity that theologically has changed the least over time since New Testament times (probably primarily due to them speaking Greek and thus not introducing errors through translations, and not being heir to some of the more innovative thinkers like Augustine), but there have still been some fairly major theological developments in Eastern Orthodoxy too.

                              As an atheist I am saved from the burden of having to believe any particular one set of those teachings at any one particular time to be The Truth.
                              Yes, but as an atheist you still have the burden of having to decide what things to believe, what moral stances to take. And from what atheists say, they do view their own conclusions as approximations of the truth. They just don't connect the truths, and the process which arrives at their conclusions, as rooted in a cosmic reality.

                              Newman's little essay on the Development of Doctrine* may have been an apologetic for the Catholic Church as a divine institution, but it also correctly provided a historic view of how ideas of the present have come to be accepted. Newman's ideas on development of doctrine are not just applied to religious matters, but also have importance in viewing ideas in the secular sphere.

                              A look at church history shows a continuity of ideas across time. There are very few novums, new ideas.

                              *Newman's Development of Doctrine is the attempt to account for the non-static Catholic teachings, as compared to the view of some sola scriptura Protestants, where the only valid doctrines are what is lifted from the text of scripture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_doctrine

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