Is Putin trying to appeal to Conservative Christians?

[simplicio]

But we are talking about a Nazi church (at least YOU are) - not to even mention the fact that Nazi's believed in the Aryan myth which is definitely not Christian.

I am sure that Hitler co-opted a few clergy here and there, but the Christian Church did not "tie itself to a political order" and "Hitler succeeded in co opting those churches" as you first suggested. Now you are claiming he made up his own church. You are starting to sound desperate to keep up your story any way you can.

Its not quite "made up his own church",

The nazis were seen by contemporaries as a form of revival and revitalisation of the church, entirely in keeping with the historical vision of Christianity in continual reformation, some even went so far as seeing it as a continuation of Luther's unfinished reformation. Naziism was viewed as within the Protestant historical stream of political expression of authority, Christian authority.

I am not the one who focused on the Nazis, it was brought up as a counter example to my objection to your assertion that dictators always try to do away with religion. I argue that fascism incorporate religion, and that religion's role is even used in defining fascism. <= the point everyone is ducking (not sure how many times i've repeated it)

The Aryan mythos is recognized as nonChristian by you, today, because you inherited a history which includes the errors of the past. It is easy to look back and see the errors, it is another to look ahead and correctly recognize the errors.

The Christian Church offered little opposition, the Catholic Church offered the most opposition, but was able to function as opposition largely because of its supranational character; but even Pope Pius could not stop priests from disappearing into the jails and camps, its schools dismantled, youth groups disbanded, ministries curtailed.

Rogue provided a pretty good bibliography, might want to look at some of the books (warning: such books contain a lot of words, the words are linked to many complicated ideas). Where you see contradiction in the various descriptions (tie itself to political order, co opting churches, founding own church, etc) I see ideas from historians and Christians who write books. Books with a lot of words.

[Sparko]

Its not quite "made up his own church",

The nazis were seen by contemporaries as a form of revival and revitalisation of the church, entirely in keeping with the historical vision of Christianity in continual reformation, some even went so far as seeing it as a continuation of Luther's unfinished reformation. Naziism was viewed as within the Protestant historical stream of political expression of authority, Christian authority.

Cults always see themselves as the continuation of The True Church™

I am not the one who focused on the Nazis, it was brought up as a counter example to my objection to your assertion that dictators always try to do away with religion. I argue that fascism incorporate religion, and that religion's role is even used in defining fascism. <= the point everyone is ducking (not sure how many times i've repeated it)

And we showed you that Hitler didn't incorporate religion, he put up with it and was planning on destroying Christianity along with the Jews. Any cult he created along the way was just a stepping stone to that goal.

The Aryan mythos is recognized as nonChristian by you, today, because you inherited a history which includes the errors of the past. It is easy to look back and see the errors, it is another to look ahead and correctly recognize the errors.

Uh no. It is definitely non-Christian and always has been. You don't even know what it is, do you? It has more to do with India and Hinduism than Christianity, and it is mostly a theory that was mistakenly created from a misreading of the word "arya" meaning "noble"

Aryan, name originally given to a people who were said to speak an archaic Indo-European language and who were thought to have settled in prehistoric times in ancient Iran and the northern Indian subcontinent. The theory of an “Aryan race” appeared in the mid-19th century and remained prevalent until the mid-20th century. According to the hypothesis, those probably light-skinned Aryans were the group who invaded and conquered ancient India from the north and whose literature, religion, and modes of social organization subsequently shaped the course of Indian culture, particularly the Vedic religion that informed and was eventually superseded by Hinduism.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan

The Christian Church offered little opposition, the Catholic Church offered the most opposition, but was able to function as opposition largely because of its supranational character; but even Pope Pius could not stop priests from disappearing into the jails and camps, its schools dismantled, youth groups disbanded, ministries curtailed.

So you think the Catholic Church isn't Christian? And Pope Pius is still regarded as a collaborator, or at best someone who ignored Naziism.

[simplicio]

Cults always see themselves as the continuation of The True Church™

As does each denomination. The search for primitive Christianity, New Testament Christianity, Apostolic Christianity, etc., is common to every denomination!

The Lutherans are hardly a cult. And the contemporaries who saw the Nazis as both compatible with Christianity, and embodying Christian values is something you ignored. Many of the same errors in the German Church were also incorporated into US Christianity.

And we showed you that Hitler didn't incorporate religion, he put up with it and was planning on destroying Christianity along with the Jews. Any cult he created along the way was just a stepping stone to that goal.

You showed that? Hitler, or the Nazis, kept those institutions which provided support for the Nazi ideology. If you go back to the beginning of the thread, your assertion was that dictators always outlaw the church or create a state run version, as China has. Three versions of Christianity are barely distinguishable from it western counterparts. Sino-Catholicism is anchored on the age old question of who has control of appointing bishops, Sino-Pentecostalism and sino-evangelicalism (or sino-calvinism) is anchored on the role of citizenship. Both church state issues.

And again, the role of religion in fascism is important, even to the point where religion is incorporated into the very definition

The theology of the three Lutherans I listed (Kittel, Althaus, Hirsch) were compatible with both Nazi and mainstream views of Christianity. The few churches still standing which use Nazi symbolism have people arguing for their preservation, and the people who worship there have gotten so used to the architecture that they did not even recognize it.

Uh no. It is definitely non-Christian and always has been. You don't even know what it is, do you? It has more to do with India and Hinduism than Christianity, and it is mostly a theory that was mistakenly created from a misreading of the word "arya" meaning "noble"

Aryan, name originally given to a people who were said to speak an archaic Indo-European language and who were thought to have settled in prehistoric times in ancient Iran and the northern Indian subcontinent. The theory of an “Aryan race” appeared in the mid-19th century and remained prevalent until the mid-20th century. According to the hypothesis, those probably light-skinned Aryans were the group who invaded and conquered ancient India from the north and whose literature, religion, and modes of social organization subsequently shaped the course of Indian culture, particularly the Vedic religion that informed and was eventually superseded by Hinduism.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan

At the same time Germans were extolling the virtues of the Aryan race as well as building theologies around that view, Christians in the US were extolling the virtues of the Anglo Saxon race.

And it extends into the 21st century.

So you think the Catholic Church isn't Christian?

I realize that you see that as clever and consistent with a Christian ethic, I see it as blatantly dishonest.

And Pope Pius is still regarded as a collaborator, or at best someone who ignored Naziism.

Yes, that is definitely true. But that view arose in the fifties and sixties to curtail the influence of the Catholic Church.

During and immediately after the war, the Catholic Church was lauded as providing the most opposition to Naziism, and doing the most of any institution, Christian or secular) for Jews. It is amazing what influence a concerted propaganda campaign can have.

[Sparko]

Cults always see themselves as the continuation of The True Church™

As does each denomination. The search for primitive Christianity, New Testament Christianity, Apostolic Christianity, etc., is common to every denomination!

The Lutherans are hardly a cult. And the contemporaries who saw the Nazis as both compatible with Christianity, and embodying Christian values is something you ignored. Many of the same errors in the German Church were also incorporated into US Christianity.

We are talking about Hitler starting his own church, remember?

And we showed you that Hitler didn't incorporate religion, he put up with it and was planning on destroying Christianity along with the Jews. Any cult he created along the way was just a stepping stone to that goal.

1-You showed that? Hitler, or the Nazis, kept those institutions which provided support for the Nazi ideology.
2-If you go back to the beginning of the thread, your assertion was that dictators always outlaw the church or create a state run version, as China has.

1- Yes we showed this. Go back and read rogue06's post.

2 -and that is exactly what you said Hitler did, create a state-run version.

Uh no. It is definitely non-Christian and always has been. You don't even know what it is, do you? It has more to do with India and Hinduism than Christianity, and it is mostly a theory that was mistakenly created from a misreading of the word "arya" meaning "noble"

Aryan, name originally given to a people who were said to speak an archaic Indo-European language and who were thought to have settled in prehistoric times in ancient Iran and the northern Indian subcontinent. The theory of an “Aryan race” appeared in the mid-19th century and remained prevalent until the mid-20th century. According to the hypothesis, those probably light-skinned Aryans were the group who invaded and conquered ancient India from the north and whose literature, religion, and modes of social organization subsequently shaped the course of Indian culture, particularly the Vedic religion that informed and was eventually superseded by Hinduism.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan

At the same time Germans were extolling the virtues of the Aryan race as well as building theologies around that view, Christians in the US were extolling the virtues of the Anglo Saxon race.

And it extends into the 21st century.

So you just ignore everything anyone says and continue to make up stuff in your own head to respond to?

So you think the Catholic Church isn't Christian?

I realize that you see that as clever and consistent with a Christian ethic, I see it as blatantly dishonest.

YOU were the one contrasting the Christians with the Catholic Church as if they weren't Christian. Was that just you slipping up again, you troll?

And Pope Pius is still regarded as a collaborator, or at best someone who ignored Naziism.

Yes, that is definitely true. But that view arose in the fifties and sixties to curtail the influence of the Catholic Church.

LOL. No. it arose because Pope Pius was probably a collaborator. Or at least too afraid to confront Hitler directly.

[simplicio]

We are talking about Hitler starting his own church, remember?

1- Yes we showed this. Go back and read rogue06's post.

2 -and that is exactly what you said Hitler did, create a state-run version.



So you just ignore everything anyone says and continue to make up stuff in your own head to respond to?
YOU were the one contrasting the Christians with the Catholic Church as if they weren't Christian. Was that just you slipping up again, you troll?


LOL. No. it arose because Pope Pius was probably a collaborator. Or at least too afraid to confront Hitler directly.

Which Christian group confronted Hitler at all? Few did? When Pius did confront Hitler, the repercussions were significant, which is why Bishops pressured Pius to tone it down. The fact is that no Christians groups confronted Hitler. But the NYTimes wrote on oped praising Pius XII for doing more than any other institutions to save Jews and confront Hitler.

I did not ignore what was said, I disagreed with the analysis and gave reasons why. Positive Christianity and its related churches/theologies was not a creation of Hitler and the Nazis, the Nazi approved theologies sprang from Christians: Kittel, Althaus, and Hirsch are three prominent Lutheran theologians, acceptable to Christians today and acceptable to Nazis.

And we still have the idea that fascism uses religion such that the religious angle is used in many definitions, and the idea that dictators do away with religion.

[demi-conservative]

Believe it or not, the rest of the world is not on the same progressive LGBT page as the West is. Putin (like a lot of non westerners) is old school.

For all his faults, Putin will probably be remembered as a Defender of the Faith.

[simplicio]

For all his faults, Putin will probably be remembered as a Defender of the Faith.

Right alongside other able Defenders of the Faith such as Hitler and the KKK, both were noted as defenders by Christians contemporaries.

[demi-conservative]

contemporaries.

"remembered"