Top Museums announced!!!

[rogue06]

Found some of them. I'll post something based upon them in the next couple of days.

I hadn't forgot and will post something this weekend. I was just hoping to find more of it before doing so.

[rogue06]

I wrote quite extensively about Ham and his reputation for a thread over at CARM a few years ago (it was in response to a particular noxious poster who referred to him as "Lord Ken Ham") which is now lost after their recent crash. I'll see if I can find my notes on it.

Okay, I'm just going to post my first draft that I wrote verbatim (removing hyperlinks to other posts because they don't work since their recent crash anyway). Keep in mind that this was a response to some specific things being said there.

Ken Ham is easily the most prominent leader of the YEC movement being the head of their largest organization, AnswersinGenesis (AiG) and recently being in the spotlight thanks to his debate with Bill Nye.

Some around here appear to revere him almost to the point of idolizing him (going so far as to refer to him as "the Lord Ken Kam" and speak of "serving" him). He is described as being "godly, honest, brilliant." But is that really the case?

Or is he yet another scoundrel similar to inmate number 06452-017, Kent Hovind, who is currently serving time for tax evasion where he not only ripped off the public but also his own employees as well?

So let's start looking at what sort of person "the Lord Ken Ham" other YECs who have personal dealings with the man say he is.

In May 2007, Creation Ministries International (CMI) filed a lawsuit against Ham and AiG in the Supreme Court of Queensland seeking damages and accusing him of deceptive conduct in his dealings with the Australian organization. Members of the ministry were "concern[ed] over Mr Ham's domination of the ministries, the amount of money being spent on his fellow executives and a shift away from delivering the creationist message to raising donations."


Source

So, according to other YECs who had direct dealings with him Ken Ham is dishonest. A man who engages in "deceptive conduct" taking money from the organization and doling it out to his cronies. And how he had taken over AnswersinGenesis and changed it from a ministry into a fund-raising machine in order to do so^[1].

I think that it is reasonable to assume as he was passing out the money to his friends and supporters he likely was helping himself to what he perceived as being his "fair share." Tax records reveal that Ham pays himself nearly $200,000/year out of the money from the flock he fleeces. Not bad for essentially sitting around doing nothing.

Initially, CMI did not want to take this matter to court. They asked that the issue be taken to arbitration and decided by a Christian judge following the precept established in I Corinthians 6:1-7:

When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers! Don't you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? I am saying this to shame you. Isn't there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues? But instead, one believer sues another—right in front of unbelievers!Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated?

You see, aside from what the Bible tells us we should do, in such a situation the decision will be influenced by more than just what is legal but what is ethical and morally right. Yet Ham steadfastly refused and demanded that it be decided in the regular court system -- where only whether something is legal counts and if something is immoral, underhanded and unethical doesn't matter.

CMI was very open about what was taking place in contrast to Ham and his gang at AiG who for the most part would only issue terse denials of the charges and hung up on a reporter from "Christian Faith and Reason Magazine" when asked about the controversy.

Interestingly, Ham's then #2 man Brandon Vallorani initially sided with those who eventually became CMI before everything turned nasty and lawsuits were filed. When Ham found out he and his comrades fired Vallorani for what they called "treason" for "wanting to dethrone Ken." "Wanting to dethrone" Ham? Dethrone? Seriously?

Vallorani was indeed terminated but only after being given a nice chunk of change^[2], on the condition that he sign a confidentiality agreement. IOW, hush money.

In the end after the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ordered the matter be sent into arbitration the matter was decided out of court but in the opinion of the YECs who dealt with Ham he is essentially a money-grubbing, unethical and dishonest man.

But is that the only group of Ham's fellow travelers who see him as being rather sleazy? No.

n March 2011, the Board of Great Homeschool Conventions, Inc. voted to "disinvite" Ham and AiG from "all future conventions," saying that Ham's words about other Christians were "unnecessary, ungodly, and mean-spirited statements that are divisive at best and defamatory at worst."


Source

The Board of Great Homeschool Convention, which describes itself as being “100% young earth” in its scientific stance, but after seeing Ham in action they realized what a nasty, brutish excuse of a man he was and permanently disinvited him from attending any functions. They saw the wolf under the sheep's clothing and realized how "ungodly" (their description) he is.

So his fellow YECs describe Ham as being deceptive and spending the money they raised on his buddies. It was a group of YEC homeschoolers that saw just what sort of "ungodly, and mean-spirited" person he was and told him to get lost.


Note, while this thread is similar to the legion of threads that attack prominent evolutionists, most notably Darwin, there are some important differences

• I'm not insinuating that since Ham is dishonest and ungodly that this somehow automatically invalidates YEC. The scientific evidence does that

• The things I discuss are what other YECs who had personal, direct dealings have said about Ham not what his critics who have never met him have charged him with

1. The dispute broke out over charges of unethical dealing in the handling of magazine subscriptions on Ham's part and resulted in the splitting up of AnswersinGenesis into two separate groups -- AiG and CMI with the latter group filing charges against Ham for "unbiblical/unethical/unlawful behaviour."

2. Vallorani's salary went from $74,432 in 2003 to $90,344 in 2004 even though he worked less than nine months of 2004

I'd say that's roughly 80% of the eventual post since I added some more facts and figures to boost my case which were not in my notes


The following comes from some exchanges in response to the above

Wow. This is like ancient history, of the "he said - he said" variety. You just now reading about this?

So something that ended in 2009 is "ancient history" but talking incessantly about things that took place well over a century to a century and a half ago is relevant. Got it.

Sure, it's always a sad affair when Christians on any side get into a dispute and it escalates into court. The Apostle Paul warned against such escalations, but the reality is that they still happen sometimes, as America's newspapers will attest.

If you actually read the OP you would have seen that I already mentioned that even quoting I Corinthians 6:1-7. The problem is that CMI tried to avoid going to court. All accounts seem to indicate that CMI sought reconciliation at nearly every turn but Ham and his pack of followers would have none of it. CMI sought Christian arbitration but Ham rejected it outright insisting that it be settled in secular courts.

As I noted

You see, aside from what the Bible tells us we should do, in such a situation the decision will be influenced by more than just what is legal but what is ethical and morally right. Yet Ham steadfastly refused and demanded that it be decided in the regular court system -- where only whether something is legal counts and if something is immoral, underhanded and unethical doesn't matter.

But having said that, the fact is that the matter has been long settled and done with.

Yes, AiG did finally settle with CMI. But that does not in any way, shape or form excuse Ham's behavior in the matter. His dishonesty. His deception. His underhandedness.

So both of THEM have done the right thing, come to an agreement, and ended the dispute.

There's nothing you can do to resurrect that dispute, I'm afraid. It's long gone. Doesn't even show up on media radar.

I'm not trying to "resurrect the dispute" as you claim. I'm exposing what YECs who know and have dealt with Ham say what sort of person he is.

As for Ken Ham's perceived honesty level, you may be interested to know that this past July 30 or 31, the Kentucky Tourism Development Finance Board voted unanimously to approve $18 million of tax-break incentives for the Ark Encounter, to be built in Williamstown, KY.

So it's clear that some government officials think Ken Ham is honest and are willing to put big taxpayer money and their own election futures on Ham, IN SPITE OF constant evolutionist whining.

That had far more to do with politics that any supposed honesty on Ham's part.

In the county I live in the owner of the company responsible for doing most of the roadwork went to jail for fraud but his company still gets the lion's share of county road repair contracts. Obviously it has very little do do with him being honest.

And please keep in mind it is HIS FELLOW YECs here that are describing him as deceptive and dishonest -- not those who accept evolution.

It is HIS FELLOW YECs here that depict him as a money grubber, transforming AiG from a ministry to a fund-raising machine and giving generous amounts of that money to his cronies -- not those who accept evolution.

(One might also ask why, if Ken Ham is so dishonest, his ministry at AIG has come to be so widely popular among Christians

Perhaps a better question is why are con men successful at fleecing the gullible. I was recently reading an article about how Peter Popoff (a faith healer who was exposed on the Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson as being an utter fraud^[1) was now making more money suckering poor desperate folks after being exposed and forced into bankruptcy than during his height before being exposed. Obviously it has nothing to do with being honest.

<b>that Bill Nye chose to fight KEN HAM in the Media Debate of the Year</b> instead of Hugh Ross or William Dembski or the other famous non-Darwinists.)

Could it have anything to do with it being that Ham was the one to challenge him to a debate? And is, as noted in the first sentence of my OP, Ham is

the most prominent leader of the YEC movement being the head of their largest organization, AnswersinGenesis (AiG)

1.He would send his cohorts into the audience before to talk to the crowd and gather personal information which his wife would then relay to him through a radio receiver he kept hidden in his ear and he would then repeat what she said pretending to have obtained the information through divine means. Google Peter Popoff and look at all the videos on Youtube exposing this huckster.

Another exchange:

So lets be honest here, yes? EFCA and MinistryWatch. MinistryWatch is so gung-ho that they'll even publicly criticize ECFA. Yet Ken Ham ***passes *** the test with both groups for clean and ethical ministry and clean money-dealings.

It isn't how he ran AiG in 2005-6 when he first took control that is the problem but how he acted in 2007-9. It's the underhanded manner during those years that is the issue.

But the two sides DID setttle on their differences in court, they came to some kind of agreement. It's over already. Been over for years. Finito already.

Just because they finally came to a settlement does not in any way, shape or form excuse Ham's behavior in the matter.

I can't speak for anyone's private character, but the fact is (based on the huge success of both the AIG website and the Creation Museum), the vast overwhelming majority of YECs clearly believe that Ham is honest, and they are backing up that belief with the money that they continue to pour into both ministries, especially the museum.

By that logic YECs are rapidly losing trust in Ham because revenues for his "museum" are way down.

And this was why I brought up Popoff in the first place. Again using your logic he too must be honest because he's now raking money in hand over fist despite everything.

Due to size restrictions I'll post the last third or more in another post.

[rogue06]

Continuing...

So far the Ken-Ham-can-do-no-wrong crowd has concentrated their defense upon his behavior in seizing control of AnswersinGenesis and transforming it from a ministry into a money making venture to keep him and his followers rolling in the dough. Nothing has been said of his conduct that got him permanently kicked out of the Great Homeschool Conventions (GHC).

So let's take a look at what exactly happened.

Ham had been a regular speaker at their meetings and was scheduled to speak at another one in what I think was Greenville, South Carolina in March of 20011 along with Peter Enns a noted Old Testament Bible scholar and Jay Wile a nuclear chemist. Ham became outraged when he learned that Enns, who is associated with the BioLogos Foundation which has an Evolutionary Creationist point-of-view would also be speaking. Ham immediately launched into rabid pitbull attack mode and went after Enns.

So much for the YEC claim that all they want is fairness and that equal time should be afforded to both sides to present their views and let the listeners decide for themselves -- a a view that Ham and AiG pretends to support^[1].

The third speaker, Jay Wile, who is another ardent YEC, had the temerity (in Ham's view) of defending Enns against Ham's angry tirades making it clear that even while he disagrees with Enns, his views were not unbiblical.

This resulted in Ham becoming even further enraged and resulted in him directing his venomous attacks against Wile as well, and for good measure against the GHC itself for daring to allow Enns to address their members.

With that the GHC had enough and unanimously voted to kick Ham to the curb and tell him to get lost. He was permanently "disinvited" from attending any future gatherings. In addition, AiG as an exhibitor has also been asked to leave.

They were quite disappointed that their "expression of sacrifice and extraordinary kindness towards Ken and AiG has been returned to us and our attendees with Ken publicly attacking our conventions and other speakers" adding that Ham's public outbursts were "unnecessary, ungodly, and mean-spirited statements that are divisive at best and defamatory at worst."

And let's be clear about this GHC is, as they say, "100% YEC" and as their conference organizer, Brennan Dean, clearly states "Ham was removed for his spirit not for his message." And said further that, “We believe Christian scholars should be heard without the fear of ostracism or ad hominem attacks.”

So a group of fundamentalist YECs formally banned, or shall I say "Expelled," Ham and AiG due to the former's "unnecessary, ungodly, and mean-spirited statements."



1. In all fairness that was exactly what the GHC was trying to do even if they were stacking the deck with 2 to 1 on the pro-YEC side. They were walking the walk but Ham would have none of it.

His being deceptive hasn't changed. When asked on a radio show called CrossTalk if there were any religious requirements for prospective employees at his Ark Encounter "museum", he responded "You don't know what you are talking about".

http://wp.production.patheos.com/blo.../ark_job11.png
http://wp.production.patheos.com/blo...8/ark_job2.png

"Salvation testimony" is a requirement for possible employment. Seems like a religious requirement to me. Would I get the job if my salvation testimony was "I haven't been 'saved' whatever that is supposed to mean?". Somehow I doubt it.

There are numerous incidents of Ham claiming that he or his gang at AiG hadn't said or done something where only the most cursory look reveals that he is not even remotely telling the truth. One instance took place around the time he was being permanently banned by his fellow YECs from the Great Homeschool Conventions (GHC) for his "unnecessary, ungodly, and mean-spirited statements."

Ham was criticizing a book by Randall Stephens and Karl Giberson called "The Anointed: Evangelical Truth in a Secular Age" declaring:

The authors also asserted that ICR [Institute for Creation Research] and AiG argue that evolution is "responsible for much of what’s wrong with the world" (p. 36). Answers in Genesis has never stated or implied this. We have both—in countless articles and even in the 2008 online debate between Ham and Dr. Giberson—declared instead that the teaching of evolution has caused many to doubt or disbelieve the Bible.

The problem is that anybody familiar with what Ham has said or what is posted on the AnswersinGenesis website knows that Ham is far from being honest as this little cartoon clearly demonstrates. Here is a different version of it also on AiG's website.

CARM strictly limited images posted in their threads so links had to be used (and only two of those per post was allowed)

The rest of the notes deal with an entirely different subject wrt to Ham so I'm not including them.

Some of the stuff the was in the original initial post that was lost dealt with how he had been pushing long term members out of executive positions so he could replace them with his family (nepotism) and put them on the payroll (much easier to control the money when it is kept in the family). Here are a few sources for that http://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/ans...it-organzation and https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress...asty-of-drool/